Transcript

Joe Mills:

What are the unique experiences that drive business leaders to keep growing, and how can the lessons learned from those stories enable others to do the same? I’m Joe Mills.

Reid Morris:

And I’m Reid Morris.

Joe Mills:

And together we’re investigating who it takes and the tools to use to build companies and culture.

Reid Morris:

Then we’re sharing those stories with you.

Joe Mills:

This is 1000 Stories, an original show from Element Three.

Reid Morris:

Okay, Joe, so next guest coming on the podcast, Paul Ashley. Can you give a little bit of context for where this connection came from?

Joe Mills:

Yeah. So Paul has been in touch with people at Element Three for a long time. I actually first met him through Tiffany and Karen years ago. And Paul is a producer at what was First Person is now, they were purchased by NFP about a year ago. And he’s just another one of those people that fills his life up to the max. They’ve got five kids. He’s a sommelier, he’s an adjunct professor at Butler, his life is just full.

Reid Morris:

Just a few things.

Joe Mills:

Yeah. And he’s also just one of those guys who every time I talk to him, I just have a great time. And so selfishly I’m just like, “This is going to be very fun,” and we’re doing something a little different this time. We’re going to have a bottle of wine. We’re going to do the wine thing. We both have that background, his is way more experienced than mine. But Paul’s just a great guy who I’m excited to talk about the fullness of his life, how he makes his choices on where he goes.

To give a little bit of a background story, Paul was an executive who pulled himself off of the executive team to go back to being a producer because he felt like he could both fulfill himself more in that, and he felt like he was a better teammate in that role for the organization. He was giving more outside of the executive room and he was like, and I also frankly just didn’t like as what I was doing as much. And so I think it’s cool to talk to somebody who’s got the confidence and maybe just security in who they are to be like, “I’m going to take the title away from myself and be okay with that.”

Reid Morris:

Yeah. It’s interesting. It’ll be curious as you explore what else were motivators within that. And again, to the point of the intuition and gut, how much of that drove that decision versus a lot of time doing the pros and cons and the actual calculations of the thing. There might be some interesting parallels in that too. Our conversation with Becky Beckman because she had some interesting jumps and obviously had a very senior role pretty early on in her career and then had some different jumps. So I think it’ll be interesting to see what parallels we draw to some of the other people we’ve talked to around that. Again, non-linear career path idea that we’ve come to really lean into over the course of the show.

Joe Mills:

Yeah, totally.

Reid Morris:

It should be great. What are we working with here, Joe?

Joe Mills:

Paul, do you want to tell Reid what we’re working with?

Paul Ashely:

It’s wine.

Reid Morris:

Okay. What is that exactly?

Paul Ashely:

It’s red.

Reid Morris:

Okay.

Paul Ashely:

No, it’s the Nebbiolo grape. If you look at it probably looks like you might think of Pinot Noir, but it’s more robust in taste. So like Pinot Noir, it’s a thin skin, somewhat difficult grape to grow, but a more robust flavor profile than you would normally get from a Pinot Noir. It’s grown in the Piedmont region of Italy which is, if you look at a map of Italy, Northwest, the very tip but bubble over there. This is from the Langhe sub-region, and you would normally think Nebbiolo from Piedmont, you would think Barolo or Barbaresco. Those are names you’ve probably seen before on menus and those are highly acclaimed, really Uber successful regions. And when I saw Drew bring out the bottle, I’m like, “Nice move,” because you’re basically getting a value play. You’re getting as good as Barolo and Barbaresco, but you’re not paying the stupid prices that you have to pay to get there.

Joe Mills:

To set it up, actually, it’s a perfect start to the show because Paul, in addition to being many other things, is also sommelier.

Paul Ashely:

Yes.

Joe Mills:

And one of the fun things that we don’t always crack open, actually we’ve never cracked open a bottle of anything on the pod yet. When we were talking about coming on, it was like, “This will be fun. Let’s do it this way.”

Paul Ashely:

This is the start of a new tradition that now you will always open alcohol water on the pod.

Joe Mills:

So just to give a little bit of background to the people who may listen to this, I don’t even know how to exactly describe. If I was to say, “Oh, Paul does blah,” I would have to ramble for a while because you made the decision yourself to step back into being a producer role, interesting. And you’re also sommelier, which you actually practice. It’s not just a certification that you have. You do things like I talked about a second ago at the wine tastings. So when somebody asks you-

Paul Ashely:

Don’t forget adjunct professor at Butler.

Joe Mills:

… yes, this is the one I forgot. Thank you. Also, adjunct professor at Butler. And so all of that together, when somebody asks you, “Paul, what do you do?” The most common of the United States questions at a cocktail party, what do you say?

Paul Ashely:

It’s like, “Well, do you want to know about my day job or what I’m into?” And I’m into my day job, don’t get me wrong. I think what they’re asked, “What do you do professionally? How do you make your money?” And so I talked to them about the role I’ve been in at NFP, the artist formerly known as First Person but now NFP, and how I get to help employers with their people stuff primarily in the area of total reward, so employee benefits, compensation, that’s my been my career path for the last 20 years. And it’s what allows me to have a great life and put food on the table, and really, I love it. It’s not just about making money. Yes, it does that, but it’s such a cool job because I get to meet so many different business leaders and get to be inquisitive about their organization and what makes their organization tick and wanting to help them with something super important, which is attracting and retaining people. That’s a pretty cool job.

Joe Mills:

Well, it’s interesting you just said that. There’s something interesting that happens when you bring people wine and food together and you let it intentionally happen. And then you mentioned, “Oh, I like my job because I get to meet all these people.” Did you go into First Person at the time or did you go into employee benefit work because you’re like, “I know I love, I want to be around people?” Or was that a common thread? Because I see it as a thread to the things that you do.

Paul Ashely:

I don’t think at the time, just 20 years ago when I got into the industry, I was actually working in the Packaged Food industry.

Joe Mills:

Okay, let’s go back to that. What were you doing in Packaged Foods?

Paul Ashely:

So I was working for Campbell’s Food Company like Campbell’s Soup, Mmm! Mmm! Good!

Joe Mills:

Good. And what a tagline?

Paul Ashely:

It was a very successful food company.

Joe Mills:

It is.

Paul Ashely:

And they own more. They own V8 and they own Prego and they own a bunch of stuff. And I remember I was in a good place with Campbell’s and being promoted and being considered for promotions, interviewing pretty early in my stint there. And I remember going to one of the national sales conferences and the guy got up and he was so passionate about this product unveiling. And what he was unveiling was Soup to Go, those little coffee cup [inaudible 00:06:41]-

Joe Mills:

Oh, yeah. They have a red plastic top.

Paul Ashely:

… yeah, it almost looks like a coffee mug. And I remember him just being over the top passionate. And I came home and told my wife, I was like, “I can’t do this, I can’t get that excited about this.”

Joe Mills:

So his passion was real?

Paul Ashely:

It was a real passion. And I’m like, “I can’t do this job.” Putting food on people’s table is important, and Campbell’s is a very well run, well-respected organization, great training program that I was a part of, but I said, “I can’t do this.” She’s like, “Well, you need to go figure that out.” And so that’s what led to me meeting Bryan Brenner, who is the founder of First Person, and that’s what got me into the industry. And I tied myself to his passion about, part of my expertise in what I do is about risk management and about self-funded health plans, and cost containment strategies that are of quality, connecting people with high quality healthcare at lower cost outcomes.

That’s all pretty nerdy stuff that’s quite frankly spreadsheety and boring. But I was able to connect to Bryan’s passion about doing it with excellence and how you communicate it well and the branding of it. And that really just attracted me into it, and I haven’t looked back 20 years later from a professional standpoint. My undergraduate major is in Exercise Physiology. I was much younger and more fit one day. And for me, the thread that binds here is I’m a learner, I love to learn. So I loved Exercise Physiology, I loved it. But I got to the end of my degree and said, “I don’t want to go into that.”

Joe Mills:

How did you know?

Paul Ashely:

I don’t know, I just knew it was in my gut. I was like, “I don’t see myself… Cool to learn, great sciences. I don’t want to do it.” So then I went to work for my fraternity, which was a great transition. I got to touch a lot of stuff of a large nonprofit, and I went to work for Campbell’s and then I finally found the industry that was right for me. But the thread that binds all of those things and continues to bind my passions that aren’t my core career, like sommelier, like adjunct professor at the Lacy College of Business is learning, a lifelong learner. And obviously with the professor thing, it’s learning to teach, helping others learn, so I get joy of helping others learn and grow in their development. So that’s the thing that I would’ve never been able to articulate at age 19. Looking back, I can see the thread.

Joe Mills:

How did the wine thing happen?

Paul Ashely:

So my senior year of college, last semester I was doing, basically a full-time unpaid internship, externship, whatever that would be called, and it was part of the degree program. And at night and in the weekends, I would work at a fine dining restaurant. So the individuals that own that restaurant were smart. They said, “If we can teach our staff a little bit more about wine, they’ll be more confident, they’ll be more comfortable. They’ll sell guests more, guests will be happier, the server will make more money.” Lots of margin in the restaurant business-

Joe Mills:

On alcohol.

Paul Ashely:

… on alcohol. So at age 22, that planted a seed for me of being interested in wine all of a sudden.

Joe Mills:

So they were teaching you-

Paul Ashely:

They would have legitimate things about wine? Yeah, absolutely. They would have distributors come in and they had their own knowledge from the industry, and they would just teach us pre-shift, “Hey, we’re going to try this. Here’s what you’re looking for,” totally a foreign concept to me at the time.

Joe Mills:

… and this was an externship as part of your Health and Kinesiology major?

Paul Ashely:

No, that was at night. I was doing that job on the side.

Joe Mills:

Okay.

Paul Ashely:

Yeah, because it was an unpaid externship. Well, so that’s what planted the seed. So then as an adult, I got married, I continued to enjoy wine as I had a little bit more disposable income as life went on, Amy and I would enjoy it together, sort of find out what we liked and didn’t liked. I started reading more about wine, subscribing to wine publications. And then for my 40th birthday, which would be almost six years ago, she said, “All right, that’s it. You’re going to go, I’m going to pay for you to go to the Court of Master Sommeliers and get your Level 1 Introductory Exam.”

I did that, and actually I was one of four guys from Indianapolis that we now… I knew one of them, and so the four of us all knew each other. And we sat together, we went out to dinner there and we said, “All right, when we pass this exam,” which we all did, none of us, the other three of us weren’t in the industry. And so we said, “Hey, when we come back together, let’s start doing monthly wine tastings and cooking.” And we were really dedicated to it for the first 18 months, then the pandemic hit and we’ve been a little bit-

Joe Mills:

[inaudible 00:10:56] fallen off a little bit.

Paul Ashely:

… yeah, it’s fallen off, but we still connect and it’s just been great. And we have a text exchange between the three of us that go really active for three or four days, and then we won’t text for a week, and then debauchery about wine. And it’s been a really great group of guys, and so that’s continued that passion and that connectivity in relationship that’s brought us together.

Joe Mills:

Well, it’s interesting. You did something different than I think a lot of people do with their hobbies. You were like, “Okay, now I’m going to subscribe to a wine publication, and now I’m going to go to get certified.” Do you find that same level of, “I start a thing if it’s interesting, I dive deeper and I keep diving deeper and I have to take it all the way?” Is that common in your other interests?

Paul Ashely:

I think so. So in my profession, obviously not having an undergraduate degree in this area, I went and did my certified Employee Benefits Specialist Designation, which is the ultimate designation you can get on the technical side of health and welfare benefits, and at the time I did it, compensation and retirement plan. And so that was a three or four year process that I finished in 2012. And it’s the International Employee Benefits Foundation, IFEBP and the Wharton School of Business, they create the curriculum and then it’s something you do virtually. There’s an example. I got into the industry, I liked it, I got the designation, and I have kept learning, continuous education. I got into wine. I got the Somm designation, I continued to learn. And so I’m deciding from a designation standpoint what I want to do next. And I’m looking at the Wine & Spirit Education Trust, WSET. It’s a more academic side of the Wine and Spirits industry. The Court of Master Sommeliers was designed to help people come along and be great on the floor on a service [inaudible 00:12:32].

Joe Mills:

It’s really meant for fine dining.

Paul Ashely:

Correct, in a service capacity. Whereas the WSET is more academically natured. And at the very end of the WSET process, you can actually get a Master’s in Wine, almost like a Master’s degree in Wine. And you have to write a dissertation and defend it and-

Joe Mills:

Interesting.

Paul Ashely:

… yeah. So I could see myself going that direction because I don’t intend to ever be in the industry and on the floor of a restaurant. But I love-

Joe Mills:

You’d much rather be sitting at the table on the floor of the restaurant-

Paul Ashely:

… correct.

Joe Mills:

… enjoying it with your family and friends.

Paul Ashely:

Now, what I really love though is the virtual wine tastings and small in-home parties, or what you did here with your group where I just get to come in… And there’s a service component too because I’m trying to help you be hospitable. But what I really get passionate about is the depth of education and knowledge, and then sharing what I know and also asking the group what they know and what they’ve experienced, “Have you ever been to Italy?” “Oh, yeah. I went to Lake Como and it’s beautiful.” “Well, yeah, it’s gorgeous. Did you know that’s where Franciacorta is from, which is sparkling Italian wine that’s as good as champagne?” “Oh, yeah. We had it when we were there and this is what it was like.” I’m like, “Oh, cool. I’ve never been to Lake Como. I know about it, but I’ve never been.” So what I really get off of is just the education part and learn with people, and learning from people as I share my knowledge, therefore building back my knowledge and theirs.

Joe Mills:

I can imagine that’s how you sell when you’re with NFP.

Paul Ashely:

Yeah, I think so. I like relationships too. And I’ve definitely edge on the technical side, but I do it. I actually had somebody tell me today, “You’re a great educator.” We were talking about a concept and she’s like, “You’re a really great educator. Has anybody ever told you that?” And I’m like, “No.” She’s like, “Well, you take things that are complex and make it real simple and understandable.” But I think that is how I sell, whether I mean to or not. Like I said, that’s the thread, learning and education.

Joe Mills:

How do you see the rest of your life and your work life? Do you intertwine them a lot, do you think about them separately?

Paul Ashely:

Especially pre-pandemic, it was really sweet of the organization. They would use my talents around wine knowledge and wine tastings for client events. When the pandemic hit, it became lesser just because the way business works now is a little different, but we’re starting to bring some of that back. We’ll be doing one in March, there’s a focus group or a peer group that we’ve collected of professional service leaders in the people space. And the kickoff of that peer group, the back half of it is going to be a wine tasting.

Joe Mills:

Nice.

Paul Ashely:

And so I get to lead that at our office. So was that my job? Yeah. It’s relationship management development with key clients and prospects that need our services or already user services, but it’s also my passion of wine that helps to then create the connectivity and relationship. So I do get to intertwine them quite a bit.

Joe Mills:

I feel like at some of the highest levels of service oriented, especially consultative selling in the way that we operate, there’s this constant thing of, “Be authentic, be who you are, be real.” And I think that the people who have interests outside of their work and know how to bring them in, it’s not necessarily intentional. You’re probably not waking up and you’re like, “How am I going to be a Somm at work today?” But it’s just who you are and how it comes through is so much more conducive toward generating relationship. And there’s so much more to talk about outside of, “Okay. Now, we’re going to talk about your risk management again.” Where it’s like, “Okay, cool.” Have you felt that be a professional advantage for you, having so many interests?

Paul Ashely:

I think so because people want to do business with people they trust and find interesting more than people they don’t like, don’t trust and aren’t not interested in. So I think my depth of uniqueness, background and stuff I’ve done helps me connect with people and find something that we have in common, even if it’s not wine. “Oh, five kids? I have five kids.”

Joe Mills:

It actually is an interesting point too around, back to the commentary around following your passion. And we talked about this later too, the patience to find it. When you started at First Person, did you immediately fall in love with it or it took a little bit of time, you had to understand what made the world unique?

Paul Ashely:

Yeah, it took a little time, but it was pretty quick.

Joe Mills:

Pretty quick.

Paul Ashely:

Yeah, it was pretty quick. And the thing that keeps me passionate about it is that some of the solutions are the same and they repeat, but each client problem is a Rubik’s Cube where it’s a special combination that has to be unlocked. And what I really find interesting is getting to know a leader or a business owner, or an entrepreneur or a founder and being like, “What on earth were you thinking when you started this?”

Joe Mills:

What sort of thing would they be doing that makes you scratch your head and be like-

Paul Ashely:

I don’t mean, what on earth were you thinking, negatively. I mean, super positive like, “How were you sitting around your kitchen table one day-

Joe Mills:

… and thought of this problem.

Paul Ashely:

… and thought of this problem that you were going to solve this problem and grow this business? Just seeing how organizations are developed or how nonprofits are mission driven and they solve big community problems. It’s just fascinating to start to ask the expert inside, and it may have nothing to do with the problem I’m solving and the challenge that I’m helping them overcome, but just wanting to say, “Let’s set that aside for a second and just tell me about what makes you tick, what makes the business tick, and how the organization…” That forever fascinates me.

Joe Mills:

Yeah, it is a problem thing of, “What were you out to solve for when this happened?” Thinking about even the company that was our podcasting, Share Your Genius. It got started in essentially a hospital room while Rachel was immediately postpartum with her first daughter and she had to be in the hospital, and she was like, “How can I build a business that allows me to be telling stories from remote?” And this was obviously before a time of Zoom and now everything’s able to be remote, but this wouldn’t have existed. There’s not very many of what they do if she wouldn’t have been like, “I am in this situation with a problem to solve and I have to figure out how to solve it, and this is going to be my solution.” It’s interesting to hear everybody’s got that weird, interesting background where it’s like, “Oh, that was what you were trying to solve for on this.” What has lately been grabbing your attention?

Paul Ashely:

A good glass of wine always. This one’s working for me. I alluded to this a little earlier, I was going this more academic route on my wine, the WSET, and they have levels, Level 1, Level 2, and then keep going. And then you can get to the point where you essentially have a Master’s in Wine. I don’t know that I’ll ever go that deep, but that’s something that’s really been interesting to me lately and trying to carve out and make time to decide, “Am I going to pull the trigger and start to enroll in that experience?”

Joe Mills:

What’s your decision framework for that?

Paul Ashely:

It’s time, am I crazy enough to make the time to do it without having Amy want to punch me in the face?

Joe Mills:

And drop your other responsibilities?

Paul Ashely:

Yeah, my various responsibilities.

Joe Mills:

Would you ever want that passion to turn into something more than that?

Paul Ashely:

It’s funny. So if somebody was asking me a similar version of that question, the wine passion, create a business out of it. Right now, the answer is, no. And I don’t foresee that changing, but I’ll never say never. For example, the guys at Vine Society use me as a come out of the bullpen, and early on they were like, “We’ll pay you.” I’m like, “No, you won’t.” “Why not?” “Because then it’s a job, I already have a job. I don’t need to get paid.” And I want to keep it as a passion and not, “I got paid,” even though the value of what I do is quite high and it helps them grow their business. Now, I hope the IRS isn’t listening. They send me extra wine, and that’s like a barter and I don’t claim it on my taxes.

Joe Mills:

Oh no, it’s tax season too. You’re going to be in trouble.

Reid Morris:

Terrible.

Joe Mills:

Uncle Sam’s coming for you.

Paul Ashely:

Yeah, I just ruined it all, right?

Joe Mills:

You did.

Paul Ashely:

Yeah, but it’s not crazy. If the IRS is listening, it’s a de minimis amount and it probably doesn’t have to be claimed.

Joe Mills:

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. The people we talk with on this show are ambitious, driven individuals who feel called to create positive outcomes in all aspects of their lives.

Reid Morris:

And as we all know, with that drive comes pressure and stress. And in order to show up and be your best self, it’s extremely important to have a professional at your side who can help you navigate that journey, so that’s the reason that we’re really excited to be sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp is the world’s largest therapy service. They have over 25,000 therapists and it’s all online. What’s really great about that is that if you don’t connect with the first therapist that you interact with, it’s super easy to try another, and that allows you to connect with the person that’s best for you. I think it’s awesome that in this day and age, you can just do it from the comfort of your home.

I mean, Element Three, ourselves is in a hybrid environment and we’ve all become accustomed to this world of doing things that fit your lifestyle. So we love that BetterHelp can help do that too. And for listeners of this podcast, you can get 10% off your first month on BetterHelp by going to betterhelp.com/1000stories. Again, that’s better, H-E-L-P.com/1000stories. We’ve talked about that too actually, that I’ve had instances where I turned a passion into work and it ruined it for me.

Paul Ashely:

That’s what I’m afraid of.

Joe Mills:

Has it happened before?

Paul Ashely:

No.

Joe Mills:

Okay.

Paul Ashely:

No, it hasn’t happened before.

Joe Mills:

Where else have you had an opportunity to turn a passion into work?

Paul Ashely:

I probably haven’t.

Joe Mills:

So you’re like, “It’s so good. I don’t want to ruin it.” Don’t fix a non-broken thing.

Paul Ashely:

So the only close example I can come up with this is that, Amy and I were friends for five years before we even thought about dating, and we both were like, “Do we ruin the friendship by becoming boyfriend, girlfriend and whatever?”

Joe Mills:

Moving beyond friends.

Paul Ashely:

Right. So that’s probably the only example I have, and that worked out.

Joe Mills:

That worked out great.

Paul Ashely:

Well, it worked out for me. I could argue whether it was a good move on Amy’s part, but certainly that’s probably the closest example. But your cautionary tale of, “I have had passions that I wasn’t getting paid for, and then they flipped over to economic gain and it ruined it for me,” I don’t want that.

Reid Morris:

I think it’s an interesting dilemma because many people who found very successful businesses because they eventually found that thing they were very passionate about and monetized it, and that’s the thing that took off, but then do you also reserve some things that are separate and where do you draw that line?

Joe Mills:

Well, and this goes back to the conversation I was asking you, how do you view work and life? Is it very intertwined? Do you like to keep them separate?

Paul Ashely:

Everything’s an open book with me. It’s all intertwined. The whole idea of work life balance is such a facade.

Joe Mills:

Yeah. We had Mark Caswell on here-

Paul Ashely:

From Resultant.

Joe Mills:

… and he was like, “I hate that phrase.”

Paul Ashely:

It’s a dumb phrase.

Joe Mills:

Yeah.

Paul Ashely:

Work life balance does not exist. I’ll refer to it occasionally as work-life fit or work life integration where there’s going to be things that ebb and flow. You can’t find a perfect balance. There’s always trade-offs.

Joe Mills:

Well, I mean, even thinking of, my life is relatively simple in the sense that I do not have five children, God bless.

Reid Morris:

So smart.

Paul Ashely:

So smart.

Joe Mills:

Who knows? I might, I have no idea.

Paul Ashely:

Speaking of cautionary tales.

Joe Mills:

Speaking of cautionary tales. But even inside of that, there’s seasons where life is taking precedence and then there’s seasons where work is taking precedence, and there’s times where they intertwine. We are almost always flying into the start of the year. It’s very important for us from a new business standpoint to have great Q1s. So I work a lot, I spend a lot of time trying to find new pipeline opportunities and working on closing new deals, and then the holidays tend to be a little bit slower for me. I don’t have as much work to do in December typically, or around Thanksgiving because people start taking vacations and my life slows down, and that’s more of a time where I get a chance to spend a little more time relationally and do a little bit more stuff outside of the focus on Element Three. And so it’s just ebb and flow seasonality that if I always thought about, “Am I spending as many hours per week at the office as I am, at the gym as I am, with my wife, with our families, et cetera, I would drive myself mad.

Paul Ashely:

Yeah, you can’t do it all. You can’t have it all.

Joe Mills:

How do you think about it, Reid? I’m curious. I have a lot of espousing about work life balance and my hate of the term, but I’m curious what your perception is on it.

Reid Morris:

Well, one thing I was going to say is, I think the position of work life balance isn’t a thing, is somewhat for people who are privileged enough to be in a job that they love and that really, that’s a term for people who are in a spot where it truly is a trade off. I work and that is the counterbalance of my life because I enjoy one and I don’t enjoy the other. So I think there’s some level of this idea of it being more fluid is for people who are lucky enough to be in a spot where they’re really fulfilled by their work, to a point of, you can’t have it all. I am in the mentality of, “Oh, I will.”

Paul Ashely:

Watch me.

Reid Morris:

Yeah, watch me. But that’s my own thing.

Joe Mills:

Well, I’m interested in your perspective on that, when you’ve been in roles that you didn’t love, did you feel like it was more of what he just identified [inaudible 00:25:03] trade off?

Paul Ashely:

Yeah, that’s the point. I go back to that Campbell’s days. First of all, I was young and didn’t know what I was doing, and I knew that I wasn’t passionate enough to reflect the passion that I saw with somebody who was truly passionate. When you then get into something that you are passionate about, you do get that fluidity and you get into the zone, that athletic zone, Michael Jordan talked about it. There were nights where the basket literally looked-

Joe Mills:

It looks huge.

Paul Ashely:

… huge, and he just threw it at it and it went in, and that’s when he drops 40, 50, 60.

Joe Mills:

It’s like what Cornelius was talking about where he was, “This idea of burnout is garbage. If you find a thing that you just dive into,” and he’s going to give you his full take every time. And he was like, “If you feel like you’re getting burned out, you’re in the wrong work. It’s not fulfilling you, so get out and do something different.” And it’s a really interesting thought process of we feel burnout because the thing that we’re pouring ourselves into is not pouring back into us. But when you find the work that fulfills you, it doesn’t really feel like, “Oh, I’m just working again.”

Paul Ashely:

Agree. Yes. And there are times where you’ll be in a season or a job that’s not as fulfilling, but enough that you do it, but then you have side passions that fill your bucket and it lets you be able to do the job.

Reid Morris:

I think there’s another piece to it as well in terms of this idea of work life balances for people who maybe don’t get as much fulfillment from the work of… I think another piece to it is that there’s a feeling of there’s right and wrong. And we speak to a lot of people who live in roles that they’re passionate about and who have built companies that they’re passionate about. It’s on a spectrum. It’s not work-life balance because I’m passionate about what I do. What I think that can tend to do is create a feeling of, and the other is wrong, which is not the case.

It’s a sliding scale and that people who actually do see it as balance and that they just get their fulfillment from outside of their work. I think it’s more of a gray area of if you wanted to do that, that’s fine, versus being like, “You should be passionate about your work.” Now, I struggle with that because I’m somebody who fully believes that you should be passionate about what you do from 9:00 to 5:00 or whatever that becomes. But I think it’s interesting because I feel like people can frequently get to this point of, one of them is wrong and one of them is not.

Joe Mills:

Yeah. There’s a lot more nuance than, I think, we are classically trained to believe. We’re told to have opinions. I’m curious, is that a thing you experience as well where it’s like you feel like generally speaking people want opinions and they want yes or no, not so much of, “Well, it depends?”

Paul Ashely:

I think in my advising role, ultimately they want a black and white answer at some point. I mean, they want to wrestle through it. More times than not, they either say, “Well, what is your recommendation or what would you do?” Or I get to the point where I sense they’re going there and it’s like, “Are you ready for a recommendation? Is it time to tell you what to do?”

Joe Mills:

We were having this conversation internally and I’m curious about what you would recommend, what happens when you don’t know and the answers haven’t… There’s questions that need to get answered before you can make a strong recommendation, but someone’s paying you to be the wise person in the room who has the recommendation, how do you navigate those conversations?

Paul Ashely:

I usually tell them that this is like a specialist, like a physician specialist who’s trying to… Do you remember the TV show, House? A physician needs a certain amount of input. They need tests, they need history, they need differential diagnosis. There’s a lot of things they need. And if you were to ask a specialist early on in their time of meeting you, “Diagnose me.” They can’t, they won’t, they shouldn’t. It’s very much the same thing for the consulting work. You do the consulting work, we do quite often, which is, it’s not time yet. This is not the right part… I can tell you what I think so far, but I can’t give you the answer to the test yet because I don’t have enough information. It’s not you haven’t given, we just haven’t gotten there yet. I don’t have enough input or data, and so I often will tell them that, and people get that doctor analogy. They would never expect that of their physician. That typically has helped me navigate out of those waters.

Joe Mills:

Yeah. It’s helpful because we were just talking about it today and I was curious. Like somebody who’s spent more time in it, has had more of those conversations, I would love your insight and I’m happy to hear that that’s how we try to navigate and most of the time it works.

Paul Ashely:

Most of the time. And if they’re like, “No, I need it right now,” it’s like, “Maybe this isn’t a fit. Maybe we should break up.”

Joe Mills:

That’s actually a really good rabbit trail to go down. How often do you find yourself saying-

Paul Ashely:

That I want to fire a client?

Joe Mills:

… that you just feel like it’s not the right fit for you guys?

Paul Ashely:

Rarely is it with an existing client because you’ve learned to dance together. It’s more in the sales process where, of course, you want to hit your goal and you want everything to be a, yes.

Joe Mills:

Totally.

Paul Ashely:

And this is stealing from Brian Neal. You have to be… And I’m going to butcher this, so he’ll do a much better job when you get him on.

Joe Mills:

I’ll be sure to intro this with, “Paul totally butchered this,” can you make it better?

Paul Ashely:

And he will. There’s basically three things. You have to have an abundance mentality. You have to believe that anything’s possible and there’s so many people that need the help that you have to give, the problems you can solve, the gift you have. Number two, you have to be personally detached from the outcome. In other words, they may tell you, no, but that’s not about you. That’s about the fact that their problem isn’t big enough or somebody else is actually better to solve it and you’re still a great person. And three, you have to show up with the mindset of intent to be helpful. These are mindset things that he talks about, and they apply to business development, but they really apply to a lot of other things in life. Show up to that conversation with your spouse or your kids, your coworkers, your clients, your prospects.

You’re probably going to navigate the world if that’s your mindset because your behaviors will follow. So anyway, my point bringing him up is that, a lot of times in a sales situation, it’s a great logo that you’re going after somebody you really want, but if you truly step back and you’re honest, it’s like, “You know what? They don’t really have a problem I can solve. I could maybe wedge them in and force them, but at the end of the day, they’re going to be unsatisfied.” I see it more on the business development side than I do once they’re a client, of trying to like, “This isn’t a great fit. It’s okay. We’d love to work with you when you actually have a problem or a challenge that we can solve, we’re ready, but now’s not the time.”

Reid Morris:

To that end of the things playing, not only in that business environment, but then with family, spouse, children, how frequently do you see yourself taking things that you’ve learned in the workplace and use that as your sandbox and implemented those things outside?

Paul Ashely:

At home, I’m terrible at it. We’re worst to the people we’re closest to and love the most. I’d be a way better husband if I treated my wife like a prospect.

Joe Mills:

I feel the exact same way.

Paul Ashely:

I mean honestly, we’re terrible to the people closest to us. I don’t mean literally terrible, but not as thoughtful.

Joe Mills:

But as perfect.

Paul Ashely:

Not as thoughtful.

Joe Mills:

Yeah. You said that listening is a skill you’ve developed. What sort of intentional practice have you gotten that you think allows that? Or is it just literally by the fact of your work and you have five kids and you’ve got to listen and life environment?

Paul Ashely:

It’s an intentionality. It’s a mindset like, this happened today with one of my kids. I knew they needed to be heard and not have problems solved. And so I just said, “Yeah, that sucks. It’s right that you’re feeling this way. What is in…” And then asking open-ended questions. And so it’s really a mindset of, “All right, flip on the listening skillset.” I’ve also learned in business development, and part of it is also from mentoring other people and watching them struggle with the things I used to struggle with, and it’s a reminder of where I’m at and to like, “Oh God.”

A lot of times sales isn’t about spilling everything you know out, it’s about asking the right questions to help a prospect uncover their true need, and that doesn’t come from talking. That comes from how helping them find insights, by asking great questions, repeating back to them what you’ve heard, challenging. “You said this before, are you sure, which one’s more important,” than watching younger folks honing their craft in business development. They’re always presenting because presenting is how you close the sale. Sure, it is at the end, at the very end.

Joe Mills:

It should already be closed.

Paul Ashely:

When you’ve already done 85% of the work.

Joe Mills:

Yeah, at least.

Paul Ashely:

At least, if not more.

Joe Mills:

Brian Kaviki, who’s our sales coach here, he talks about this a lot where it’s like, “You do not show people what you know by the things you say.”

Paul Ashely:

No.

Joe Mills:

Show them what you know by the questions you ask.

Paul Ashely:

That’s exactly right.

Joe Mills:

It’s also interesting, you come out of a world of academia, and I’m interested in how you think about this because you now work in that world as well.

Paul Ashely:

And I grew up in that world.

Joe Mills:

You grew up in that world.

Paul Ashely:

My parents, one was a assistant dean and dean of students, and one was a professor of Theater.

Joe Mills:

Is it fair to say… This was my experience, I’m not going to try to espouse in the world that, you are rewarded growing up for showing what you know, and then you’re supposed to flip that and stop doing it and it’s been 18, 20 years, more years of having it ingrained into your skull.

Paul Ashely:

Yeah. If you go through and get an undergraduate degree, you’ve spent 22 years parroting what you know to find success, and then you find that actually that’s not what creates success in the business world or in most worlds.

Joe Mills:

Have you found that the skillset you’re developing in your professorship at Butler is also really applicable to your life at home with your kids? Do you see your role at home to teach?

Paul Ashely:

Yeah, but it’s so less formal. And again, your kids know your faults because you let your hair down and so they can call your bluff at home and vice versa. So I mean, the way you teach at home, they just parrot what you do, which is both awesome and scary.

Joe Mills:

Do you just see them do things and you’re like-

Paul Ashely:

Oh God, yeah.

Joe Mills:

… “oh God, I do that and I need to stop?”

Paul Ashely:

Yeah. Or being addicted to technology. They get that from their mother and father. We’re terrible. So I love watching the reels on Instagram.

Joe Mills:

I do have a selfish question because I’m in that timeframe where kids are on the mind.

Paul Ashely:

Huh?

Joe Mills:

Because I’m about to be 30, my wife’s about to be 30. It’s just the thing that’s around-

Paul Ashely:

The biological clock is ticking?

Joe Mills:

… a lot of our friends are having their first or second kid. It’s just a thing. And one of the pieces that’s always been a little hard for me to wrap my head around is, “How do I have a full life for me while having kids?” And one of the things that they’re going to know you a little bit, that’s been very encouraging in that sense is like, you’ve got to gaggle and you’ve got a very rich career and you have-

Paul Ashely:

Passions too.

Joe Mills:

… found time to do your passions in a meaningful way. Does that require an incredible amount of intentionality, was it lucky? How do you pour into you and pour into them?

Paul Ashely:

I think one of the things we’ve done in our marriage is date each other, we try to make time where we go out. They’ve all reached the age where at least one of the three… Well, one of the two now that are at home are still there and we don’t have to pay for a babysitter or anything like that. They all watch each other. Continue to date your spouse and not let the kids be everything because if you’re not strong, bee smell fear, kids will eat you alive if there’s something wrong with mom and dad or spouse and spouse. So I think that’s been real pouring into our relationship as two whole parts coming together as husband and wife, and then still caring for that. I think that happens a lot where kids become the priority and then you forgot the whole reason kids existed is because you fell in love and you have this relationship.

You’ve got to tend to that relationship. So we’ve been pretty good at that. There’s been seasons where we haven’t, of course, ebbs and flows, but we’ve been pretty good at that. And I think me being interested in stuff and being creative and doing my own thing is something good for my kids to see. So the fact that sometimes dad’s gone and facilitating a wine party at Element Three and instead of getting home at 6:00, he gets home at 8:00 one day is actually not bad. They’re like, “Oh, dad’s out doing his passion. He’s a nerd.” It tells them to go and be passionate about something.

Joe Mills:

Well, in your message about they will parrot what you do-

Paul Ashely:

Both good and bad.

Joe Mills:

… yep.

Paul Ashely:

And you and I talked about this before too. I want to make sure we’ve mentioned. It goes back to being passionate, being the right fit of job. There was a five-year season that ended in spring of 19 where I was on the leadership team when First Person was locally owned and independent before we plugged into NFP as an owned office in 21. And in 19, I went to the leadership team and I said, “I don’t want you guys to misunderstand me. I don’t want you to think that I don’t love working on this team. I don’t want you to think that I’m trying to leave, but I don’t want to be on the leadership team anymore. It no longer fills my bucket. The work we do here is important. We have to have great leadership, great vision, great execution. I want out,” and that was pretty scary. It was a pretty scary moment.

Joe Mills:

When you were prepping to say that, what was going through your head?

Paul Ashely:

Well, the fear was that they’ll hear this as, “He wants to leave. He’s trying to get out.” And the reality was, I was trying to stay, making sure I could stay and really be aligned. My personal needs and passions being aligned with the needs of the business because one leader usually doesn’t make an organization significantly better or worse, and I was one of five or six people on a leadership team. So the concern was that they would think that I’m trying to get out and I wasn’t, but with that group it wasn’t true. They knew me. I knew them. We’d had a relationship. We’ve been in the trenches, and so I was able to go to them and say, “This is not about me trying to get out of the business. This is about me trying to focus on the things that I uniquely am gifted to do, and I will be more important to the business if it’s these things than not being on the leadership team.”

There’s really three things that if I wake up every day in the business and do, one, strategically consulting with clients to get their outcomes and leading the team that delivers those. Two, business development, not as a full-time producer, but as a hybrid in partnership with the consulting. And three, both intentionally and unintentionally mentoring other people on the team that are newer to either consulting or sales. If I do those three things and that makes up the majority of my day, I’m winning and the business is getting what it needs. And so that was the clarity that I had. And so July 1st of 19 I made that shift. I left the team. The other fear I had was the ego fear.

Joe Mills:

It takes a little bit of guts, maybe a little more than a little bit to take that title from yourself.

Paul Ashely:

Yeah. It’s an ego thing because you’re taught, “Ascend, ascend, ascend, promotion, promotion, promotion,” and here I was saying, “Take me off the leadership team, strip me of the title and keep me in a role that’s lesser than on the org chart,” but it was exactly what I needed.

Reid Morris:

Was there anything in that process that feels like you had the clarity of the why behind you made that decision, but did anything still surprise you about the transition?

Paul Ashely:

What surprised me in a good way was that people heard me and took it at face value and believed in me, and trusted me and helped me get what I need that happened to be what the business needed. It wasn’t a surprise, but it was like, “Yep,” affirming.

Reid Morris:

You were a little worried that you’re going to say this and they’re only going to hear, “I want to leave?”

Paul Ashely:

So surprise/ affirmed, that’s what I expected them to do. Then one of the things I thought would be true would be the ego thing, and there are times still today where I’m not in the room and it’s like, “Oh, I’m qualified to be in the room, but I’m not,” but it’s fleeting. It’s not true. It doesn’t last. It’s like, “Oh, that’s not, I don’t need that,” so there’s still that ego.

Joe Mills:

It’s like a taught need. If you were to ask a kid who didn’t understand anything, “Do you want to be in that room?” They’d be like, no.

Paul Ashely:

What are they doing there?

Joe Mills:

What are they doing?

Paul Ashely:

Do they have snacks?

Joe Mills:

They’re talking about stuff. Is it interesting? Not always.

Paul Ashely:

Not always.

Joe Mills:

I’m good.

Paul Ashely:

Some really tough decisions. A lot of conflict in that room, not with each other but with the world, conflict with strategic choices.

Joe Mills:

You named three things that tell you that you’re on, I would call them all leading indicators that you’re doing your job well, that you’re succeeding in that role, that you’re making an impact where you should be. Have you had a similar framework come to life for your personal life, life outside of work?

Paul Ashely:

Probably not as well-thought-out, and so probably an area of personal growth as to like, “Okay, what are the behaviors at home?” Or if I’m doing a time study at home, what does it look like when I’m doing those things?

Joe Mills:

It’s interesting. Would you want to do that for the outside of work stuff or does it start to take away from the fluidity and fun of not-

Paul Ashely:

How am I leading at home, co-leading with Amy?

Joe Mills:

… mm-hmm.

Paul Ashely:

That’s probably where I’d want to apply that kind of thing, but I want the fluidity of the wine stuff and the adjunct stuff to just be what it is.

Joe Mills:

So you see the adjunct stuff as not really work related either?

Paul Ashely:

Not really.

Joe Mills:

Do you let them pay you for that one?

Paul Ashely:

They have no choice. They have to. It’s like they would get in trouble with-

Joe Mills:

They don’t ship you boxes of wine?

Paul Ashely:

… Well, if Dr. Craig Caldwell, the dean of the College of Business is listening… Yes, Craig, we could work something out where you send it to me at $3,000 worth of wine untraceable by the federal government. Now, that’s no longer de minimis. It feels like it crosses over the threshold. I’m probably going to get a letter from President Danko.

Joe Mills:

Stop talking about this.

Paul Ashely:

I don’t even know who you are and you’re fired. Jim’s a great leader, but he shouldn’t know me.

Joe Mills:

Some of the immediate thing that popped in my head is the dean from Animal House. That’s exactly what came to my head in that moment is just that guy.

Paul Ashely:

Dr. Caldwell, who is the dean of the College of Business, is definitely not that guy. He’s a really great leader. He’s fun to work with. I’ve enjoyed him.

Joe Mills:

So I really appreciate you coming on. It was a fun conversation. Thank you for giving us an excuse to pop bottle-

Paul Ashely:

And it’s a good bottle.

Joe Mills:

… I’m glad we made a good choice.

Paul Ashely:

You did. You nailed it.

Joe Mills:

Thanks, man. Appreciate it.

Paul Ashely:

My pleasure.

Reid Morris:

Okay, Joe. A really fun, interesting conversation with Paul. We went a couple different directions, but to start out just from hearing more about his career and the different areas where he places his passion, what did you really take away from those different things that we explored?

Joe Mills:

He has a really high level of self-awareness that I think allows him to not have to make hard decisions or rather takes decisions that are hard and makes them easier for him. So his decision to step away from the leadership team, he was self-aware that his best role was somewhere else in the organization, and so he did that and it doesn’t sound like it was very traumatizing to do it.

Reid Morris:

Yeah. And we were talking in between wrapping up with Paul, and now there’s probably scenarios where that’s warranted more and people don’t do it because of what we talked about around the head trash, around title and the ego.

Joe Mills:

And he brought up the ego. A lot of the things that I feel like I would normally say, “Oh, it sounds like you’re a lifelong learner.” He was already like, “This is what the thread is. I love to learn.” And so he has clarity about the things that are valuable to him, and therefore he’s able to follow that in many aspects.

Reid Morris:

Yeah, there’s definitely intuition and those kinds of things in his decision making, but he also had a very clear framework of, “These things need to be true for me to enjoy what I’m doing.” I thought that was really thoughtful.

Joe Mills:

That’s the biggest thing I take away from it, is just that he has a lot of thought, a lot of intentionality in his professional life and the things that has taught him about his self-awareness, and we touched on the life skills that sales gives you, they have also clearly shown up for him in his personal life, and because you really only get better on selling as you become a better person, sort of back and forth. It really aids back and forth.

Reid Morris:

We didn’t have the opportunity to get into this, but I was thinking about it during that part of the conversation around, “You’re good at selling when you’re asking good questions, and that’s the way to show up well.” If you really think about it, that pays dividends in all of the professional world, that when you come into an organization and you are just trying to show how smart you are and be the person with the answers, that you’re setting yourself up for failure, and that the way to really do and be successful is to come in and ask questions and be a learner.

Joe Mills:

Totally.

Reid Morris:

Versus trying to position as somebody who already has all the answers.

Joe Mills:

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Reid Morris:

It’s really interesting that learner’s mindset and the different benefits that come with that and then, of course, just another drop in the bucket of people who don’t see work and life as separate things and the fluidity there, that keeps coming up.

Joe Mills:

It’s just always there, for sure.

Reid Morris:

Yeah. It’s a great reminder.

Joe Mills:

Yeah, it was fun. Super fun.

Reid Morris:

And we got to have a good glass of wine when we did it, I can’t complain.

Joe Mills:

1000 Stories is brought to you by Element Three with production by Share Your Genius. This show is part of our company mission to foster growth in people in business so they can change the world. If you’re finding the show helpful or inspiring, please help us by leaving a review on Apple or Spotify. If you’d like to stay in the loop for more updates from our show and to hear other stories of growth, please head to elementthree.com/podcast.