Transcript

Reid: Okay, Joe, so a really fun guest coming on the show next in Rachel Downey, who obviously leads a team at Share Your Genius. They help with production on our show,and an organization who we are very close with for a number of reasons. but obviously we have a bit more context as to Rachel’s story, but there’s still some areas that, that we can explore with her. So tell me a little bit about where your head is at with this type of conversation with Rachel.

Joe: Well, actually the thing that just popped into my head that I think could be fun to know is, Rachel and I go back like really long time. Like I was a child. Rachel’s only a few years older than us, but she swam with my older sisters and so she like knew me when I was like six. Mm-hmm.

Reid: mm-hmm. And so Tiffany reintroduced us a few years back and she was like, Hey, my maiden name is Elts and I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah, so like we go back a really long way, which is fun.

Joe: and this is a little bit of a meta experience. You alluded to the fact that Rachel, runs Sherry Genius, who is our production company and helps with our strategy for the show and like really our podcast partner. And so it’s gonna be fun just to navigate that experience together. And it’s like there’s so much overlap, which will be just a fun part of the show. And I think from a exploring. Like there this idea for Sherry Jean started in a hospital room after a, after she had, had her first child. And so it was like, that’s a cool story to unpack and that’s about as much as I actually know about the story. So

Reid: the context before that of what led, what was the journey leading up to this decision? What are the factors at play? All those things that we explore with everybody else. Exactly. We still don’t know the answer

Joe: to. Yeah. I and genuinely don’t. Like we’ve talked about it. A little bit, but never got really in depth. And so I’m really curious about my hunch is that was not the first moment she thought about starting this company. So where did it come from? Why this, why is doing this important to you?

Reid: Why is this the impact you’re trying to leave? Like all those types of things and and all the change that even recently, like she’s navigating so much change in this growing young organization that like not only the backstory but the decision she’s making actively. there’s lots of stuff that I’ve into. Yeah, totally. That should be really fun.

Joe: I’m looking forward to it.

Reid: Awesome.

Rachel: just wanna be on your show cuz you guys are like really good and you’re like

Joe: Ah, well

Reid: one, we

Joe: we are a big deal.

Reid: was gonna say one can hope, but I actually don’t.

Rachel: Everybody 

Joe: doesn’t want

Reid: For our brand. Yes. For me. Oof.

Joe: I was actually having a really interesting conversation this morning with somebody. He’s done a nice job of positioning himself on LinkedIn as a fairly influential person.

Reid: are you allowed to say?

Joe: yeah, sure. Ryan ERs,

Rachel: I know that

Joe: he’s Chief growth officer at ksm. Yeah. Okay. And he was talking about the, the interesting as he’s been intentional about it, he’s had more and more people come up to him as if they know him and he’s like, I love it cuz it gives me an opportunity to connect with them cause they’re already open to talking to me. does he have a podcast? no, but he’d be good at it. I like Ryan

Reid: just turned into a.

Joe: really great

Reid: A referral

Joe: referral conversation.

Rachel: gonna pull up my LinkedIn,

Joe: links. Let me, but no, he was just talking about that sort of interesting feeling and then we were talking, cause we’ve talked about this before, where like Rich Will talks about it where he is like people will show up and they do actually kind of know me cause I talk about myself all the time, but I don’t know them at all. and then like Katie was in Arizona this weekend for Taylor Swift and can you imagine what musicians must feel like when they like do the meet and greet in the back and people are just like,

Reid: oh my

Joe: And when you were over here though, and they’re like, how do you know all of this? Yeah. You know, so probably

Rachel: scared. I would imagine sometimes

Joe: I would be like freaked out.

Rachel: Did you watch, Elvis? No. Have you watched Elvis?

Joe: watched? 

Reid: I tried.

Rachel: You didn’t, couldn’t get 

Reid: I couldn’t get into it. Yeah,

Rachel: I had to come back to it. But, one of the, themes and it talked about how Elvis lived for the love of the people. Mm-hmm. And it was almost like more addictive than anything else. It was more powerful than anything else. And so I have to imagine on some level they get to that point.

Joe: oh yeah. I mean you hear athletes talk about how weird it is to not, take a football athlete who once a week runs out 80,000 screaming fans who adore you or hate you, it doesn’t matter. It’s like attention. Attention. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah. You matter.

Joe: There’s something really like, I mean we’re inherently hierarchical people and there’s something about being put on the pedestal of attention that is probably very addicting.

Rachel: yeah. I was actually having a conversation with Amanda on our team about this type of idea and one of the things that I’ve been thinking a lot about was this idea don’t fall so much in love with, the process that you forget, like what you’re actually doing what are the things that actually matter the most to you? in the world of business and things like that, if you start to get any type of affirmations from the market that you’re doing the thing, you start to go, oh, I am, I’m doing the thing. I’m, and the thing that I’m doing is great and I’m great. then all of a sudden that goes away. Or you have a failure or a setback, then it cuts to your identity of who you are. And so I’m like we were just having this ancillary conversation where I was like, it’s a good reminder. you can’t fall in love with the process of the things that you’re doing and forget the love of like why you started and what actually matters to you. It’s 

Reid: interesting

Joe: I hear fall in love with the process, I think about forgetting about the outcome,

Rachel: Which

Joe: which I would say would be like the benefit, like fall in love with the process is forgetting that there is adoration on the other side.

Rachel: and I think the way that I think about that more is like this is a total true life example in a business setting, if you’re getting opportunities that you wouldn’t have normally got maybe five, four years ago, whatever it is, like somebody asked me, they’re like, do you wanna put together a pitch deck to go speak at this thing? And I was like, when is the thing? So Katie,I was just talking to her about this and I was like, when is the event? And she told me when the event was, and it was the weekend of my husband’s birthday. And very easily I could have been like, yeah, let’s do it. This is a huge conference. we should be at that conference, blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, no, I’m not gonna fall in love with the process so 

Joe: so much 

Rachel: that I’m willing to sacrifice. Like being able to celebrate and like do the thing that I was already planning on doing with my family. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally.  So

Joe: we were just talking about in, well, you guys work with bk. mentioned Bcan n at least half of our podcast.

Rachel: a celebrity. He

Joe: is. He truly is a celebrity. he talks a lot about IR theory, right? And the idea that if you get failure in your role and it affects your identity, something has been messed up and like you’ve not protected that piece of yourself in a sacred way. I go through seasons of doing that well and doing that poorly. Sometimes I think I’m doing it well and I’m wrong. I’ll be like, oh yeah, feel like I’m in a great place. Ir, and then something bad will happen with a sale or, and bad sort of relative. Like, I won’t get one won’t win. and then I’m like, and like deflated balloon

Rachel: the constant valleys.

Joe: Well, I mean that’s actually a place that would be interesting to, we were prepping for the show and I actually have never heard you tell the story of starting Share Your Genius. and the reason I went here right now is that you brought up the valleys. Yeah. My stint as an entrepreneur for, about five years or so is like a lot of valleys and I look back on it and I’m sure you’ve had the same, did you know what you were getting into when you started?

Rachel: you No. No way. I still don’t know what I’m getting

Joe: Yeah.

Rachel: yeah. No way. I mean,honestly like I feel like, it started in a valley because I had this life catalytic moment and I was trying to figure out what I was going to do with a new set of information, which is essentially at the time that Share Your Genius. The seeds of Share Your Genius started when I was a second semester, second year, first semester law school student. Had my baby in July. No, I was in the hospital in July. I had her in August. So she was born three months early. She was supposed to be due in November 14th. What’s her original due date? She was born on August 14th instead. Super random. and I was just in this new set of information of 

Reid: hey, 

Rachel: I was planning on still staying in law school because, and just having a baby, like whatever. now she’s born three months early now I don’t know how I’m going to leave the hospital and when I’m not in the hospital, I’m going to be in school. how am I actually going to make money? that’s kind of how that the seeds were started is because I was trying to figure out how to reshape what I thought my future was going to be, because I had a new set of information. information. 

Joe: so my hypothesis to read before we started was that In the hospital was not the first time you thought up share genius, but it sounds like maybe it was,

Rachel: It was the first. Well, so I had it What really wanna peel back layers? I was always doing freelance stuff. So I was like building WordPress websites or I was doing marketing operations. Like what?

Joe: But you went to school for theater, right? I went,

Rachel: I was theater and journalism. And basically what happened is I, after I graduated I was like, I want to make more money. I was working a marketing agency, had some bad situations. How about the marketing agency? Went in, went to law school as my way out kind of deal. And then was kind of gonna law school to figure out the next chapter

Joe: How, how did law school become the way out?

Rachel: because it was two things. It was kind, one of ’em was ego driven. Ego was a theme in my life that I have slowly realized. but I wanted to prove that I was smart enough that I could do it and whatever. Cause I’d never really studied or tried in school and I was like, I’m gonna see if I’m smart enough. So that was like part of the reason why I was gonna do law school.

Joe: oh, there’s so many parallels. I ran away from my bad professional experience with the gym and,it was sort of my escape from,oh, this is not what I want and I just need to get out of it. Yeah. And this will be the thing that I get out of it with. It

Rachel: It gives you an anchor. Yeah. And then you can be like, well, this is why I’m doing this. Yeah.

Joe: Well, and then I lied to myself about why I was doing it for years. Totally.

Rachel: Yes. And

Joe: And I always, wait,

Rachel: were you doing it?

Reid: I 

Joe: I wanted to be an athlete. Oh, okay. I hadn’t transitioned that I had not built other aspects of my identity on top of That moniker to a point where I could be anything but that. And so somehow my subconscious was gonna find a way to give me a chance to be an athlete still

Rachel: by opening a gym. Yeah. Which 

Joe: Which I could justify to everybody with my ego saying oh no, I’m an entrepreneur. Like I’m doing cool things. look at me.

Rachel: the thing that I hadn’t given up was I wanted to be in entertainment. And so being in Indiana, I was like, I’m gonna prove that I’m smart enough and I’m gonna do it a different way and I’m gonna go pursue entertainment or IP law or like something where I can get into that world.

Joe: what I was gonna ask is like how we went from theater Yeah. To law.

Rachel: Yeah.

Joe: when you started at Butler in theater, what was in your brain? what did your life look like eight years from then? Cause I actually think I dreamt more as a freshman in college than I do as a almost 30 year old adult for sure. Like I saw more vision for what I thought was coming.

Rachel: when you were eight in high 

Joe: I was 18. Yeah. 18. 19.

Rachel: so I’m

Joe: about if you, when you walked into to theater, if you had a thought already that you were like, this is what it’s gonna look like.

Rachel: Well, so I dream now more than I did then I will say. but a lot of that has to do with the mindset stuff

Joe: I’m trying to relearn it. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel: yeah. Well, we should talk. We’ll get

Joe: yeah, 

Rachel: Let’s do it. Yeah. I thought I was gonna move to, California  and I thought I was gonna either become a producer of some kind. I was gonna be an actor of some kind, or I was going to be an agent. I was just like, these are all the things I like and I’m gonna figure out the right mix to make that

Joe: Was it the world,when I say like the world was, you said, this is all the stuff I liked, it was just like, the world of theater, the world of entertainment. 

Rachel: So I think the thing about theater specifically that, that is applicable to the world is the idea of creating something out of nothing. Working with people who are very creative, very collaborative, who don’t think. The same way that other people think in terms of like business and things like that. I would say they just see the world differently and then you can experience that world. and I always knew, the reason I always came back to this idea of maybe being like an agent or a producer as opposed to like a performer is, I was always good, but I’ve never been great. And I, but I know great, like, you

Joe: mean like on stage?

Rachel: Yeah. Like I, I can act fine, but I’m, I have too many walls to be great.

Joe: That feels like a, the parallel right with athletics is there’s a lot of incredibly impressive coaches who could never quite play at the level. Yes.

Rachel: That, and that’s how I feel. Yeah. but I can tell you, I can tell you who’s gonna, who’s

Joe: talent. Yeah. They can pick a team.

Rachel: Yeah.

Joe: There’s a,

Rachel: can do that. 

Joe: there’s like a story of a manager from France who never was even on the training field. He would just watch and he would just pick the team. Yeah.

Reid: Yes.

Joe: Couldn’t even instruct it. But he like, that guy’s the right one. Yeah.

Rachel: So that’s how, that’s kind of where I got to that spot. And, I don’t know. Yeah.

Joe: so we started to talk about the seeds of share your genius.  you came outta school how long before, so did you graduate agency and then how long before law school? Oh my

Rachel: gosh. So I graduated in 2000. I ended up graduating a semester late. It doesn’t matter. Still the same year. So I graduated in 2011 and then I worked, at a couple different places. Okay. one of the jobs I had, I thought was gonna be my ticket to California, which is why I took the job. I was gonna open an office in California for this company. I’m not in a name in the company

Joe: is that what you were promised?

Rachel: it was what I was promised. and so that’s what I was gonna go do. And while I was working with them, I was traveling with the L P G A and just like random stuff I don’t even know what, I was a marketing coordinator of some kind. I was doing things that were not in my gifting. Let me just say that. Like I was doing contract like GS one, what is it? The GSA contracts. Okay. You have to be extremely detailed. I would be at the office until eight or 9:00 PM and still be printing these. I’m not even joking. 200 page documents. You can’t have a typo on them. You can’t have a space that’s off. And I would print these and every time I printed them I would find another mistake. it was just like, Rachel, you were not in your gifting.

Joe: Yeah. This is hard.

Rachel: I literally quit on the spot one day and just left. That 

Joe: you just feel your energy? Just like

Rachel: no, I quit because he called me stupid in an email and I read it. Ah, and that’s a whole other That’ll do. That’ll do. 

Joe: there’s the line.

Rachel: the line, there’s the line. And then so I went from there then I essentially worked at a content marketing agency for a few years and then, quit that job. Went to law school. Was doing freelance work the entire time I was in law school, and then share your genius.. but I thought Share Your Genius was gonna be a talent booking company. Okay. where  we were just gonna book people for podcasts.

Joe: you first started, that’s what you thought?

Rachel: what I thought it was gonna

Joe: Why did you see that as the opportunity?

Rachel: I thought I could do it. Okay. I was like, well, I can do this. I can pitch people. Cause I knew some pr, I knew some journalism. I just was like, this’ll be easy. I can do that. And then we very quickly, I was like, oh, with Jim, my original business partner, we were like, no, no, no. We should be creating the shows. That’s what we should be doing.

Joe: choosing Business Partners is an interesting topic to me. How did you and Jim Brown become business partners?

Rachel: I like to say that most things in my life happen accidentally on purpose. Meaning, I didn’t put enough thought into it to even give you a great answer.

Joe: No. I mean, that’s real life.

Rachel: I don’t even know what that means. I do now a little bit more

Joe: Yeah. Honestly.

Rachel: but I just. It just kind of happened.

Joe: me the story. Like you were sitting, I’m guessing you were in the hospital.

Rachel: So, okay. So what happened was, so Lennon was born, we were in the nicu, we were living basically at the Riley, downtown Indianapolis.

And I randomly got an email from Jim. Jim had been a regular at a restaurant that I worked at all throughout college. Okay. And then was kind of my safety net when I kept quitting jobs. And, he was a regular and I always think that if you’re in a position to learn, you should be learning. And so even as a waitress, I would sit down with my guests and ask them questions and get to know them. you have a nice watch, you probably are successful. what do you do for a living? all those kinds of things. so we built a relationship over time and so each quarter we would get together even when I wasn’t working at the restaurant anymore. So we just maintained like a really good rapport and a relationship. And, he randomly emailed me when I was in the hospital and he was like, what are you up to these days? I’m launching a podcast. Will you help me promote it? He was like, can you help me get people to know about this show? And I think he offered to pay me like 25 bucks an hour. And I was like, yeah, dude. And I could do it at 3:00 AM Yeah. When I was the hospital and then I could still go to my law school classes and then come back to the hospital or whatever. So that’s kind of how that started. And then,forward Linen was home and I was kind of in a different mindset and I was like, I gotta make some money and I gotta do it on my own terms and create sort of a lifestyle business for myself, which I had never thought in my life that was an option. so it

Joe: like the necessity. I wanna pause there. It was like you were forced to figure it out because you didn’t have another choice.

Rachel: Well, my other choice was, finishing out law school and I had a ton of student loan debt from Butler. I was racking up more student loan debt from law school. Yeah. And I was like, I gotta make some bank. Like I gotta make some money. or my life is gonna really suck.

Joe: normally, okay. This is a good, pause. Being a lawyer classically is a great way to make good money. Right now I recognize that it gets harder as more people become lawyers and there’s lots of difficulty in finding jobs straight outta law school, but it’s still like a fairly.

Reid: fairly.

Rachel: fairly

Joe: Highly lucrative career path. So I’m curious about what told you the motivation was, I need to make some money and this one that I’m in is not the answer.

Rachel: So this was literally what happened was I was like, the only way I’m gonna make some money as a lawyer fresh outta college, and by the way, I’m not that talented because I don’t study that much like all the things that are classic, what I was doing back in the day, you know what I mean? Show up 10 years later. I was fine, So I was like, I’m gonna go compete for these jobs, or I’m gonna have to work 80 hours a week away from my kid. That I’m just like fighting to lift, And then I’m not gonna have control over my schedule. Are they gonna, are these law firms gonna let me take my kid to her doctor appointment that she has four times a week? Exactly. Yeah. Because I didn’t know what her outcome was gonna be. Yeah.  And  so that’s where I was like, I gotta make bank, I gotta own my schedule. The only way to do that is to become an entrepreneur. Yeah. Is what I thought.

Reid: I think there’s an interesting thing here. I’m curious how you mean this. So you said that you wanted to start a lifestyle business. Yeah. And do you mean that truly in the terms of like, this is a business that will like pay the bills and it allows me to have flexibility. I’m comfortable, but it’s not going to become a big thing. Is that actually what you set out to do? Yeah. How does, 

Joe: does, I’m gonna add the second piece to that is which is, how does that and make bank match?

Rachel: here’s the nuance here is that it wasn’t, I’m not lifestyle business for me meant it was gonna be for me. I was gonna do it in a way that allowed me to make a lot of money.

Reid: of money.

Rachel: I’m not gonna make it bigger than really me because all I wanted was control over my finances. and control over my schedule. all along the journey of Share Your Genius, Like literally the way we would set goals is how much money do you wanna make This much? Like how much money do you wanna make this year, Rachel? And we’re not talking about a lot of money cuz I had nothing like, but over time I saw the vision, you know what I’m saying? That was the whole plan.

Joe: Yeah.

Reid: Where’s your mindset now, in terms of the scale?

Joe: I was gonna ask that same thing. 

Rachel: I’m like sweating

Joe: If we go, let’s go somewhere different, if you don’t mind. Yeah. I wanna know when it switched.

Rachel: It switched when I met Tiffany.

Joe: Oh, interesting. So even when, cuz at that point you and I met Backup. Backup, we talked about this, how you knew me when I was like six. But you and I jammers met. Yeah. in summer swim league,

Rachel: which

Joe: word I’m looking for? We met right after you met Tiffany.

Rachel: Yeah. A as adults. As adults. Yes. No, wait, we met. Yes, because we, and then we ended up in that class together.

Joe: Yeah. And then we ended up in Dream Fuel together. Yes. So you, that would’ve been what? 20. 20? Yeah. even that at that point it was still a I’m building it for Rachel.

Rachel: Yeah. And when I say building it for Rachel, that sounds very selfish. No,

Joe: I don’t, I actually don’t think it does. Okay. it’s a decision. Yeah. And it makes a lot of sense cuz the word lifestyle business has connotation, a lot of different ones. Yeah. And it can, I typically take it away Reed meant, which is like, oh, I’m just gonna like, do it on the side and pay the bills with it and it’s not gonna,

Reid: self-sustaining and it’s like the level up from a side gig. Yeah. But it’s not like I need to get an office and build this massive team and think about sustaining for the future.

Rachel: I did have a team we did have an office and then 2019, it felt like it was happening, reactively, not proactively. And I kept just being like, I don’t want this. I really want more of this lifestyle thing where I can like do my thing and make the money I wanna make. And I kept being like, oh, now there’s seven people on the team. Well, guess how much less money I’m making? Yeah. I’m not getting myself out of the debt that I wanted to get out. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then I found out I was pregnant and I was like,  I want control over my calendar now. my mind was just like back to these freaking kids making me make decisions And then I met Tiffany and then literally, so I got, I had to let my entire team go. It was the end of 2019. I remember it was like a 3:00 AM like, I was up all night just like in anguish, but my entire mind was like, you, like, literally it was like, you don’t have the team to build the thing that you want to build. And I was like, but the thing I wanna build is just to pay my bills. Yeah. And be with my babies right now. So it was like this really weird thing. And I woke up and I was like, everybody had to go. In January, 2020 that, that was done. And then Covid happened. I met Tiffany.

Joe: So what about meeting Tiffany? made you flip?

Rachel: I would say it had to be, her ability to sort of, what she gave me was an example

Joe: of what it could look like to be a part of something bigger than yourself, while still being a very present mother and also being able to like be in your gifts and talents. That’s what I was like. 

Rachel: oh,

Reid: it’s

Joe: it’s doable. It’s doable. Yeah. Do 

Reid: think that’s something that you actually wanted before but were just too afraid or like, didn’t know that that could be possible, that deep down you wanted to build something bigger, but like doubt held back? 

Rachel: Thousand percent. Totally. And I still have those moments. Like we all do, I’m sure. Right.but yeah, I didn’t have that as a, you see it on like magazines or whatever, but, I didn’t know anybody who had that, and I

Joe: of feels very far away. Yes. Yes. And therefore not like attainable.

Rachel: totally. Yes. And I was like, who, how does this possible? It’s not possible for me. I don’t have resources. I’m not smart enough. Those kinds of

Joe: You keep saying that. Yeah. And I’m gonna, throw something at you soon. Oh,

Rachel: great.

Joe: I’m confused. Like you keep saying like,I wasn’t good enough at it. I wasn’t talent, I wasn’t special. it’s so interesting to go from that to Yeah. But I can run a business.

Rachel: I don’t know, man.

Joe: Yeah.

Rachel: I really don’t,

Joe: It’s just sort of funny to see the idiosyncrasies in our own brains that are like,

Rachel: I never even thought about that  Because that just feels like a thing to go do. Okay. And it feels like I can run a business because I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. maybe, I don’t know. Like I, maybe I don’t feel like I can run a business sometimes.

Joe: business. Yeah. But you wouldn’t be doing it if you didn’t think you could.

Rachel: Yeah.

Joe: Yeah.

Rachel: That just doesn’t feel like a question though, as much. Cuz it feels more like a almost like,I don’t know the right word. It’s like you have to do it.

Joe: Is there like not a right answer either. Like, when you’re in, when you’re in school, there’s tests and right answers. Yeah. But in business like

Reid: like’s,

Rachel: it’s a puzzle all 

Joe: just a living, breathing organism that changes. you could have something happen tomorrow that completely changes the direction that you see it going. And there’s not like a, oh, well you did it wrong.

Rachel: Yeah. You, there was a podcast. I forget who the guest was on your show, where whoever it was that like challenged you. who like changed your life? Cornelius,

Joe: Well, Cornelius challenged a lot. Yeah. Cornelius? 

Rachel: Maybe it was Cornelius. But it was this idea of if I don’t claim it, I can’t fail at it. And so like swimming I think is a thread that you and I share. Yeah. I was never great at swimming because I never decided to be great at swimming. Like I was like, fine. Being okay. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? But I was like, if I actually tried and competed and lost that would,

Joe: it would hurt more. It would hurt 

Rachel: really bad. so I don’t know if there, that’s where I’m like,

Joe: no. This I, this is not a podcast about me, but I’ll share my own experience. I’ve been doing that in athletics since senior year of college. Roughly. you can’t try harder than I tried for soccer and it didn’t happen, and then I decided I was completely fine.

Rachel: Just like miring away in the sort of CrossFit realm and being like, oh, I kind of compete in it, And sort of like you brush it off as not important to you. and

Joe: I saw her had a reframe moment this last weekend. We was, we had quarter finals and I did really good. And I was like, oh, you can, like, maybe you should try because you can do it. And it actually opens it up to me much more scary now because it’s like, all right, I’m gonna try really hard I’m gonna do some things that are uncomfortable to make me good enough to do the things I want to do. And I’m vocalizing it for the first time and it’s like exciting and terrifying. at the same time, sort of feels like that moment on the roller coaster where you’re like, I’m about to fall. Yeah. It’s 

Rachel: Stomach’s going up think that’s actually like I, so the comment on the running a business thing and actually the lifestyle idea was safe. And then it was like, Oh, wait, if I actually, what if I actually, not that I’m saying, I didn’t try before. Yeah. But I was like, what if I did try and Tiffany inspired that, but if I pulled it back, pulled back the layers of the themes and things, it’s like I kind of was self-protecting myself. The reason I never moved to California. Well, because I didn’t think I was like, good enough. And if I went and I failed, you know what I mean? Yeah. And it feels like all those Sorts of things. but I just decided, I guess recently to be like, no, I’m gonna just become great at this. Yeah.

Joe: So what is the thing when you say this, that you’re gonna become great? Like what is the thing, the great thing you’re chasing? it can be many things. it has to be like one thing that I wanna be great at, but I’m just curious when you say the phrase like, oh, I’m gonna be great at this. What’s the, this,

Rachel: I think business is so fun and fascinating and the fact that it does change all the time and requires you to like think on your feet and like that kind of thing. Like that is fun. Like I love that. And so I want to be great at quote unquote business. I want to be great at the creation of how you can use creativity to fuel like business. and I wanna be a great leader and I wanna help other people be great. all the things

Reid: I actually wanted to call back to something a bit earlier cuz I think there’s this layer of competing with like humility and ego. You’ve talked about like how ego was part of the decisions early on. I think there’s this idea that people can’t be successful without ego, like truly building company type of things, successful. And yet when we talk about ego, we usually talk about it with a negative connotation tied to it. And I was curious, a, if you just believe that is true of this relationship between ego and success and how you compete with that. Like sort of if that’s the case, owning it with the humility and like telling yourself that you’re not smart enough, so to speak.

Rachel: Well, that not smart enough is not humility. That’s insecurity.

Reid: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Rachel: for the record, I no longer believe that. Like I actually believe I’m smart now, but that, that took a long time.

Joe: do you think got you to believe it?

Rachel: affirmation of public.

Joe: Other people.

Rachel: Other people. Yeah. Yeah. and I think that ego can be used as a tool to help you make decisions. The humility part of it is making sure that you’re making those decisions in a way that aligns to Who you are in terms of your core values and the things that anchor you as opposed to letting ego lean into maybe greed or lead into things that don’t actually have a larger impact beyond yourself. I think there’s ego that’s selfish and then there’s ego that helps drive for potentially a greater good That I think is not necessarily negative. deciding to move forward with working with Tiffany in a different way was ego-driven. that was ego-driven,

Joe: but it was also not for selfish outcomes because if I were being selfish transparently, I could have just stayed my path, made a lot more money.

Reid: you have to believe that you are the person that can go do the thing. Like I’ve been thinking about that some recently of like, I have these aspirations that like don’t feel uncomfortable or I feel uncomfortable embracing or admitting because the thing that I’m aspiring to feels egotistical. And as somebody just like,general career ambitions, things to start and build all these types of things. And sometimes it feels like admitting those things or embracing the, like I want to build the real big business kind of thing feels like you have to accept some ego in that cuz you have to like embrace, you are the person that can go do that thing.

Rachel: Yeah.

Joe: I have an issue. I’d love your two perspective on, I was like, sh sharing this in bks class today. I am starting to loathe the like fake humility thing. Like

Reid: like humility because you feel like you need to, or you should be

Joe: Humility because you can’t ever admit that you’re good at something. our culture is one that like, the moment somebody tells you that you’re good at something, you sort of am like almost expected to like brush it off as like, oh no. Like why do we ingrain that in people? I think it’s wrong. I

Rachel: I totally agree with that.

Joe: It drives me crazy too.

Rachel: I totally agree with that.

Reid: Like hearing you get to the point, Joe, where you’ve been able to say like, I’m good at sales recently. Yeah. Yeah.  yeah. I’ve tried at it for a really long time. I’ve been incredibly fortunate to watch Tiffany is mind bogglingly amazing at sales. Mostly because she is so good at listening and then taking what you’ve said and articulating it better than you can say it.

Joe: It’s like in, in Incredible. So between following her around like a puppy for four and a half years, Kyler is special following Kyler around for the next two and a half. And then throughout all of this, I see Brian Ka Vickii four times a month. I should be good at sales. It’s okay to say yeah, you’re good at sales. Do you

Rachel: like you can say you’re good at it because you’ve worked for it?

Joe: Yeah, probably. also am somebody who I believe a lot stronger in nurture than nature as a default. So it’s hard for me to say like, oh, that person’s just good at that. There’s not a lot of stuff that hasn’t been worked for. I think you have natural gifts, but I think your natural gifts tend to allow you to pursue the things that are going to you, that you can become great at.

Rachel: Yeah. I think even going back to earlier conversation of recognizing that you’re good enough isn’t enough to allow you to become great at something until I think there’s something deeper within you that says, no, dude. I’m like, go be great at this thing. 

Joe: I’m really curious because like you said, your life would be simpler, you’d make more money Yeah. if you hadn’t sort of accepted that calling and felt drawn to it. So I’m just like, I’m really curious, what is it about that draws you toward trying the harder, less immediate payoff, more complicated existence?

Rachel: I actually think it comes down to some sort of this conversation that we’re talking about here where it’s like you appreciate things that are harder to come by.

Joe: And I don’t know if that’s just like, some people are wired, I think to be comfortable with being uncomfortable or they’re uncomfortable when they are comfortable. I feel that way. that’s the, that’s actually how I identify. Like if I, if everything’s just like moving along a real steady, normal cadence, I get itchy.

Rachel: I will blow it up.

Joe: Yeah.

Rachel: Which 

Joe: like find yourself creating chaos just for the sake of chaos? Yes.

Rachel: As my husband will attest. Yes. Be like, so things were good. Okay. Got it.

Joe: So you had to press the explode button. Yeah. When things were good.

Rachel: Yeah. But  that, takes discipline too, to stop doing that. Do

Reid: you have to compete with that now though? Because like that feels like your natural place of you love living in the mess and all these things and now you’re building something that is more structured with a, like a focus on longevity and sustainability and these things. So how do you battle with that?

Rachel: It’s very hard, I would say, but I think it also goes back to this commitment of what does it mean to be great? it goes back to ego and like selfishness is if I was trying to be great for myself, I should continue to blow it all up and just do all the things that serve me and my own like appetite for chaos. But in a reality I have to realize this is no longer just about me. This is about a team, this is about a company. This is about a future world in which doesn’t yet exist.

Joe: so, there’s a constant tension that I think the company experiences, but I also think that I experience and that I have to just quiet the noise and sort of trust the journey. I imagine the answer to this is yes, but I’d be curious what the nuance you could add to it. Like you mentioned the world that doesn’t yet exist and you are likely the only one who can see it your immediate circle of team. you’re probably trying to articulate it, but Tiffany talks about this here, like, she’ll articulate a future vision with element three and people can get it. Yeah. But nobody sees it as vivid as she does. Is that like lonely or frustrating or like, what’s the experience like for you as you envision a future? And you’re like, I know my team can see some of this. Cause I’m trying really hard to articulate it, but I cannot paint them the like picture that I have in my brain.

Rachel: this has turned into a Tiffany thing, which is totally, totally fine with me. It’s just funny. another reason that I was very drawn to working with her is because I felt very lonely. and not lonely. I have obviously friends and family, but like literally people who. Haven’t lived my life experiences and no one ever can, but there were so many, and it was literally through her podcast and I was producing it at the time. And so I would be listening to her and it was literally like someone was articulating the things that I had never written down or said out loud.

Joe: I mean, I would never cry or anything with her on the thing. She would cry and I’d just be sitting there like, yeah, you’re great. You’re doing great.

Rachel: but I’m sitting there going, you’re doing great because like you’re literally speaking life into people. And that happened to be me at the time. But like she was saying things that I had never been able to say. So, I felt less lonely because I knew someone had done something similar. Like she had her children right when she was growing the business. I had my, have had my children right. When I’m growing the business. Like all of those moments. but to come back to that, like I think the thing that can feel frustrating is that, I’m already on step D mm-hmm. And people are still coming up to step A and that’s my fault because I need to go back and make sure that people know how to get from A to B to C to D, and I can’t get bored with people getting to D mm-hmm. Just because I’m already done with a b abc, if that makes sense.

Joe: It makes total sense in my head. It’s one of the things I love about working with you is that that’s typically how I feel is like, no, no, I, I thought of all that stuff already.

Rachel: I’ve moved on, but I leave wake of half done things and no process and no articulation of details and no downloading of people and like, just like barging into the next thing. Yeah.

Reid: Yeah. Well, I mean you as the like person who built this thing, your understanding of where you want it to go is always going to be ahead of anybody behind you. Even the person who is the next closest to you in helping build this thing. Like they will never be on the same level of vision for the thing you’re building as you are. But I think that some of that comes down to the team that you build around you, right? Like you’ve put a lot of emphasis into. Building this team that can help make this future thing possible. And yes, there’s like discipline and like I need to make sure that I at least articulate enough and get people brought in enough that they’re bought in, that they’re all aligned, all these things. if that’s not one of your strengths, then building the team around you, they can then, like in that e os visionary integrator kind of dynamic, make things come to life.

Joe: Yeah.

Reid: Because at the end of the day, if you had to hold that burden of both having all the vision and then bringing everybody up behind you, like that be an incredibly draining process. Yeah. So I think part of that too is just the infrastructure that you build around you to help solve that, but then also make sure that people get some of what’s going on in your head.

Rachel: Yeah. But like from your, from the snapshot of talent I’ve seen come from you, like the thing that I value in a brain like yours that you might value as well, Joe is I’m on D while other people are making A, B, and C better than what like I originally imagined.

Reid: And I think there’s a ton of value in that, that sometimes being too visionary, you forget that what’s still being created is still worth creating and being in. thinking about you, it’s like I feel like you’re that type of person where you’re like, that was cool, but here’s like how it can actually become great.

Rachel: Is that fair? Everything

Joe: he touches gets better.

Rachel: Yeah. You’re like the gold maker or

Joe: it’s the truth. Like he likely doesn’t embrace that fact because Reid, like you said, he has hard things to like, articulate and allow himself to feel like the career aspirations and whatnot. You just sort of fight them. Reid wouldn’t say he was an athlete for a really long time. We’ve worked on this

Reid: Still don’t. 

Joe: Yeah.

Rachel: See what, like why?

Joe: because

Rachel: you don’t have a medal.

Reid: N uh, no,

Rachel: I’m thinking, I’m think I’m thinking like Olympic, but wait, you do have a medal? Yeah. Just 

Joe: run marathons and stuff.

Rachel: and placed and stuff.

Reid: we don’t need to get into any of my accomplishments in the world of athletics,

Joe: I’m gonna, I’ll champion him and say just everything. what we do is like Tyler will have this idea and or I’ll have this idea, or Reid will have this idea and regardless of who has the idea, like it gets made better by him. Yeah. Once it gets to a point where it’s like, oh, the idea is now formulated. Yeah. Like as a team, it’s like somebody has an idea, we bring it to the team, the team beats it together to a like kind of construct and then we like give the kind of molded clay to read and Reid takes the clay and makes it smooth and clean and beautiful and approachable. I would be like, eh, it’s good enough. Ship it. Yeah. Onto the next thing. Cause I’m bored. I

Reid: there’s some difference there of like, when you say that you’re three steps ahead of everybody else, right? You’re in theory building the people around you that have different strengths that can take this Little nucleus of an idea and build it into something bigger. And it’s the difference of, well, if you’re three steps ahead, is that something that’s building on the foundation or are you like, well actually we’re gonna be a newspaper company, right? Like it’s, what are those shifts? So if it’s additive, then great. then the team around you can help support. And if you’re ahead, fantastic. Those things will end up making their way down. But if it’s a completely left out of left field thing, that’s gonna disrupt all the work that everybody else is doing. That’s where I feel like it’s counterproductive. Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah.

Joe: He’s also that voice of reason a lot of the time for me at least. I’ll talk to him about it and he’d be like, little not directed.

Rachel: you have to have that. otherwise I would be blowing up everything all of the time. But I will say like I am not a linear thinker. Like I just, I never have been that way. One of my like, best in use case traits, like the best thing that I can be used for are things like improv. Like, just throw me into a meeting, I’ll be fine. Throw me on on the microphone, I’ll be fine. like that is good for me. my point in saying that is that I will throw ideas out there, but I am completely fine with letting them go. And I also feel like most of my ideas are supporting the end outcome cuz I do feel really clear on where we’re going. I just dunno how we’re getting there.

Joe: Does that non-linearity, like you probably see how it gets to the end outcome Yeah. In a way that others don’t. Yes. Because they might think linearly. Yes. Okay. Totally. And that, that, that is where I’ve had some tension before. Yeah. you’re like, you can’t see it with me. I see why this matters and you don’t.

Rachel: Yes. And I think that’s okay. And I don’t ever want it to sound like I’m ahead of anyone cuz I’m not. I’m just, it’s just literally my natural pattern of thinking is jumbled.

Reid: I totally get it.  Yeah. I

Joe: if you think, cuz you mentioned like I’m on Step D people are still on Step A and our world is linear. We read left to right, we move down the page, we talk about step 1, 2, 3, and like ascends I’m, I’m. Actually thinking that your brain probably doesn’t work like that.

Rachel: It doesn’t work that way. And if we talked a little bit about career. It’s like my career has never been linear either. Mm-hmm. Like I don’t believe that the traditional path is the right path necessarily, but I think some people do really well. In taking steps.

Joe: it’s sort of like a mass, if you take the averages, law of averages, it’s probably the right path for more than it’s not. But for the people who, for it is not, they get stuck in a position where it’s like very challenging to find purpose. Yes. Because they don’t work that way.

Rachel: Yeah. Like a nine to five was a, I had a, I would have a visceral experience to a nine to five.I would literally want to crawl into a hole. Like I had like a, a few months of like actual depression where I would show up to work, do my nine to five, and then I’d go straight to bed after work. Like I was literally like, so had no energy, had no anything because I was put in a box. So it’s like there are scenarios like that where it’s like you have to just fix the reality and know your, know how you play best.

Joe: There’s a couple things that I wanna touch on. I know we’ve been going for a little bit, so I don’t wanna just steal your whole afternoon, but there’s two topics that are really interesting to me. One of them you mentioned and you mentioned like I, I wasn’t playing in my strengths. Are you like really cognizant of that now? Where before you say yes or no to a thing or before you decide whose responsibility it is on the team, do you try to think through this is a core strength, I’m gonna take it, or this is not a core strength, I’m gonna get rid of it?

Or is it a little more ad hoc? I’m just curious about how you try to be at, how you try to pay attention to it from experiences like, I was in depression cause I wasn’t playing in my world.

Rachel: I think it’s, We’re in what we continually call the messy middle. we’re trying to grow and optimize at the same time. And so sometimes people just have to take one for the team and just do the thing that needs to get done. I do think that most of the time we’re getting a little bit more out ahead of Hey, you shouldn’t be in this meeting anymore. We don’t need you. And that is ego where I’m like, oh wait, they don’t need me anymore. Okay, that’s okay. so sometimes I have to have those little talks with myself. but I feel like we’re getting to a healthier spot and I’m becoming more self-aware. We

Joe: about that with Tiffany on our very first episode. Yeah. When she was transitioning out of being the all-star. Yeah. For lack of a better term. It’s like you’re closing all the deals, you’re on the biggest accounts, you’re at the Plant pitches, and like getting away from that and  I think she said the same thing, like the hit to ego that it takes. Yeah.

Reid: Beyond having like all the control and having your hands and everything, I would imagine you’re at a place now with the team you’ve built around you that you also have people telling you no to your ideas. Yes.

Rachel: Yes.

Reid: How has that shift been in like a world where you’re just operating your own universe in every decision you make? It is happening because you’re the one who’s making that come to reality, to now people are telling you No. How do you balance that with the way that your brain works and how you like to go experiment?

Rachel: Honestly, it’s okay because I have something else I wanna go do you know what I mean? There’s

Reid: so many, there’s like

Joe: they whittle down your narrow, narrow your ideas. You’re like, okay, find that one.

Rachel: And actually I do very well with that. Yeah, really well with that. Like I’m like, I will give you 500 options. You narrow it down for me and then beautiful. I will move forward. Like I am very good with that.

Reid: Yeah. Even when you’re talking about, you’re at step D and everybody’s a step A, I think you’re actually at step D one through 25 sections, A one, three through, wait, it’s there’s 80 different

Joe: period. One period, lowercase a period I, yeah. It’s

Reid: going back to like the way that legal documents are structured from your law school days, right? It’s like there’s so many ideas that it’s not a problem if somebody says, yeah, that one’s not great, because there’s lots of other ones.

Rachel: And I have a very thick skin. I’m okay with people telling me, you’re not, my baby’s ugly, but your baby’s ugly. It’s okay

Joe: Not your physical babies. Not your real babies. Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah. 

Joe: the other piece that I’m really curious about is, we touched on like the dreaming thing. Yeah. When you’re going to work, coming back and going to sleep, you’re not in a dreaming mode. Did you feel that muscle atrophy?

Rachel: Yeah. But it was honestly, dream fuel opened that back up for me. I think it atrophied because of the season of life I was in where I didn’t know if I, I was in survival mode. I, I’ve kind of been in survival mode my entire life. and when it was starting to feel like, Really tired where I was like, what am I doing? Why am I here? I just have these children who need me all the time and I have a mortgage and all these things that you start to feel trapped. that dream fuel session allowed me to start imagining more again.

Joe: And I was like, oh wait, I can actually do this. And then I had the opportunity with Tiffany and I was like, oh wait, I can actually do this. You know what I mean? And so it was like all these little things that started to open up my mind again. was there a specific exercise or practice? Cause that dream fuel piece, like 13 weeks long, we were in it together. There was a lot of stuff that was impactful for me. Is there, is there one that you like lean on for that?

Rachel: we did the sort of, the capstone of that was that guided visualization. Visualization, but it’s like what took, I don’t know how I was able to show up to that. So vulnerable. cause I would never have done that. Like I, I mean I like cried and stuff and I’m like, what is happening right

Joe: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: And so I don’t know if it’s just you get tired of not just being, and it’s no, this is what I want, man. This is what I want. And it was like, I had the confidence to say what I wanted for the first time and then he like guided you through that. I don’t know if it just was like all the accumulation of life and podcasts and books and things coming to a head where I was like, okay, I’m just gonna claim what I want. And honestly the example of Tiffany and seeing her go through her fear journey and lay it all out there for the world and being like, oh, okay. she’s still alive and fine. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. I don’t know

Joe: There was, during that guided visualization, I don’t think I knew what I want. I still don’t know that I know what I want. But at that point I think I was even farther away than I am now. But it sort of relaunched me figuring that out. But there was this really insane moment cuz for, so for those who haven’t never done this before, the way a guided visualization happens is you sit there, you do a breathing exercise to sort of get in the state of mind. and then you’ve told in this case, Kevin, your goals beforehand. Yeah. And he’s painting the picture for you of them happening so you can see yourself doing it. And then live into that being the case. But you don’t give any details. you’re not talking back and forth. He’s just speaking to him or speaking to you. Yeah. And I had a picture in my head of who I was and he matched it to the outfit. It was insanity. Like it was the most chilling experience. I like. It was so weird. as he was talking, I saw myself in my college soccer uniform and he goes, and there you are standing in your college soccer uniform. And I was like, what?

Reid: This guy, I 

Joe: like, what? Like it was witchcraft. It was witchcraft.

Rachel: Yeah. I have like chills right now

Joe: Yeah. Talk about it. And did you have a similar thing where it was like, how did you hit that? Yeah.

Rachel: all of it. Yeah. All of it like crazy. It was crazy. It’s crazy. Yeah. 

Joe: I actually want to do it again just because I, like, I want to like re cause I have more clarity than I did then and I need to like go through that again.

Rachel: did that experience prompt you to do this, to sell the gym  and stuff like that? Yeah.

Joe: totally. Yeah. I would say that it wasn’t that specific experience, but it, what it did was it gave me the tools to know myself for the first time in a very, very long time. maybe ever, but it a very long time. And so then I spent enough time

Rachel: understanding

Joe: what I was feeling to be able to unpack, you

Rachel: you need to move on from this. I think actually speaking into that for just a second is the idea of trusting your intuition. That was actually new for me. And he taught you how to do that and how to lean into that. And then Tiffany has leaned into that telling me that that’s one of my gifts is your intuition is usually the thing. And so it’s like all of those things together, I think for me was a massive, game changer. like just from that experience again. Yeah.

Joe: now

Reid: you

Joe: you dream a lot about, and by the way, we’re not phy, we don’t mean like physical dreams. you might dream a lot, but I mean, when I say dream, what I mean is you see the future and where you want to go. Is that a thing that you keep practicing? how do you practice it?

Rachel: So, I am am not perfect, but 80 20, I get up about 4 45, 5:00 AM and I spend the first full hour of my day just I am very faith driven. So I’ll like spend time like in devotion, It’s like meditation is, sort of like listening. Visualization is like prayer.  I will be writing down the things that I’m hoping happen in past tense or current stance so that it’s not like a wish, but it’s like as if it’s already happened. And he talks a lot about that too, of you gotta state it and your brain starts to make the pathways to make it happen. So I will do that. but I do that it’s like my drug, like if I don’t have that, I am a different person, bad or good, I’m a better mom. All the things.

Joe: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve finally gotten to a place where I’ve like habit stacked meditation, but I haven’t habit it stacked visualization at all.

Rachel: So like now my normal morning routine is to wake up, I’m in the garage working out for like half hour, just something I need.

Joe: It doesn’t have to be a workout, just like move. If I don’t do it, it’s a mess. I just don’t feel good. I’m not awake. And I actually think what I could do is put in, Kevin wrote a post about this where he’ll do gratitude journaling mid set. I could do that because most of the time in the morning I’m not doing like cardio. And most of the time I’m like, Lifting weights. And so there’s like downtime between,I might do this, I might add that in as just have my notebook with me between sets, writing things. Yeah. Because that could be a good way, I think when people try to add another thing that doesn’t already fit inside, it starts to feel overwhelming. when you started getting up that early, was that new?

Rachel: Yeah. And well the way I’ve, I hack that cuz I love my sleep. is, I put it, I put my alarm clock in my bathroom. And I plug my phone in there, so I have to physically get up to turn it  off. And then I’m just like, okay, I’m up, I’m up, I’m up, I’m up. And then I put lotion on my face immediately and I’m up. You know what I mean? Yep. And then I’m good. And I don’t do, I’m not structured enough to say, first I meditate, then I visualize it. I literally just do the whole thing. Yeah. Within that timeframe,

Joe: whatever needs to like start you. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. There’s something about I know there are days where I finish at work, And I’m sort of mentally tired and therefore I’m physically tired. Yeah. And I don’t actually want to go train, but I know I want to. And what I’ve found is that if I am just able to get myself to go warm up, once I do my warmup, we’re good. It’s on. I’m good. It’s that first okay, if I can just get outta bed, I’m gonna be fine. Cause

Rachel: used to snooze, snooze, snooze, snooze.

Joe: Well, that’s what I was gonna ask you is like how you managed to break the habit of saying no enough that you, that now Yes. Is easier. Like you just said. It’s like my drug. Yeah. You missed that morning. It’s actually worse. Totally you feel worse, you’re unhappy. Yeah. Well,

Reid: like

Rachel: like transparently. I was like not nice.  I was like  yelling at my kids about crap and I’m like, what is wrong with me? And I’m like, oh, it’s cuz I’m not present. Yeah. I’ve gotta be calm. So I, that’s why

Joe: Yeah.

Rachel: my catalyst

Joe: I’m really curious, what’s the most, what’s the most like vivid dream you have right now?

Rachel: now?  Share Your Genius is going to the Oscars all the way. 

Joe: office. I love it.

Rachel: it.

Reid: That’s a period on the statement. Heck yeah.

Joe: Rachel, thank you. You’re welcome. Back on the show anytime you want.

Rachel: Thanks for having me. Appreciate you guys.

Reid: Okay, Joe. a really fun conversation with Rachel. Obviously somebody that we know well, but also knew going into the conversation that there were pieces of her story, her background, her experience that we obviously didn’t have the full picture of. I.

Joe: never knew that she had worked in agencies. yeah. That was news to me.

Reid: So obviously a really great time, just catching up with her, spending some time together. But thinking about, the concept of the show, what were some of the main threads that you were trying to follow through that conversation? What’d you learn?

Joe: One of the reminders I got from it was, and I mentioned this at the end of our show with her, that idea of like dreaming and the importance of it, like I think that’s a real thing. Like the ability to get out of your day to day and think about what could be is a muscle that goes away if you don’t use it. I came to that realization about myself. Like I used to have a really vivid imagination growing up. I could play by myself and develop world by myself. And I was, I always loved that. which was an interesting mix with being very extroverted forever. And so that was like a thing that was cool for me. And then I think when I an adult and had a lot of responsibilities and had a business and worked here and everything, it was like just. Get onto the next thing that you need to do. And I lost the ability to do that.

Reid: Yeah. And it’s not like, you get into routine, you have regular roles and responsibilities, and it’s not that’s wrong. Yeah. But it’s that, yeah, you can lose the the muscle memory of thinking about what could be next or alongside what you’re doing today. Totally.

Joe: I mean, we relate a lot of things in our lives back to fitness. Right. But even thinking about, all right, you’ve got kids in a job and maybe you’re taking care of your parents or whatever, You likely, all of those things are good and necessary, but it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t work on the muscle of being healthy and moving, So yeah, you can have a lot of responsibilities and you should still work on the muscle of how to dream and see a bigger picture, and think about what your life should be and all those kinds of things.

Reid: That was a good message from for me to her. And also it was like reassuring that she had been through not having it as well. she mentioned like being in a pretty depressive state, sort of like, wake up, go to work, come home, sleep, cuz I’m don’t wanna do anything else. and then being able to take that to a point now where she like has really big visions for the future is like, inspiring for me to think about. Yeah. it’s interesting hearing from her as somebody who, in EOS terminology, very much fits into that visionary bucket, right? and how she’s navigating this decision of now that she has the clarity of this thing she wants to build and she’s building something that is actually like for the long term and that kind of thing, the different decisions she’s had to make along that journey too, as a very visionary type and the people she’s built around her was really interesting to, to learn more about too.

Joe: And I think to relate it back to a prior episode when we had Scott Whitlock on, he talked about not really knowing what FlexWare would be when he started it. I think Rachel had ideas for what it would be, and then it morphed and she was okay with letting the goals morph. And I think sometimes it gets, I know I get this way where it’s like I set a goal. The goal must stay the goal until the goal is achieved. And if I don’t hit it, then I can’t, I don’t have the right to change it. It like feels like I haven’t earned the freedom of changing what the discipline said I was supposed to do

Reid: versus like seeing a pivot, not as a failure, but as an opportunity. Right.

Joe: And I think that both of those two, Talked about that in, in very different ways, but I saw it among both of them.

Reid: Yeah, A lot of really good, awesome reminders coming outta that conversation

Joe: sure.

Reid: Awesome.