The Courage to Embrace Yourself with Jacqueline Martinez

1,000 Stories


REID: Okay, Joe, so another guest coming on the show in Jacqueline Martinez. Super excited, them to come on the show. but I don’t have a whole lot of context as to, her background and experience. So can you provide a little bit of context to me, to the listeners around where you’re looking to go and what context do you have to this stage.

JOE: Yeah. So I got linked up with Jacqueline through Lindsay Picardo. so Jacqueline’s an HR professional by trade, and she does a couple things. She has her own consulting and coaching business that’s called Off the Record hr. And, she focuses on human-centered design. I’m a nerd for all sorts of self-development work and I had not heard of this model before. Yeah. So when she mentioned it and when I saw it on her website, I was, immediately interested in what it was. And then she also is, VP of HR and talent at, growth Day, which is a, self-development app and coaching platform. that basically gives you, like, it’s a mindset journal, it’s a coaching platform, it’s access to speakers, all sorts of things inside of a digital application. so it feels like it falls very much in line with her own personal work as well. And so I feel like there’s a lot of overlap between. The thing that she does independently and the thing that she does professionally with a group.

REID: So I think this conversation’s gonna be a little bit more tactical and a little bit more of describing a specific framework than some of our other

JOE: ones. which I’m really excited for. Selfishly, it’s just an a topic that I find really interesting and so I’m excited to dive into it with her.

REID: yeah, I was gonna say, it’s kind of a Joe Mills kind of

JOE: Yeah, it really is it’s a little bit, what I hope it is much like when we did Kevin’s and Kevin’s had certainly large elements of his story and how he got into what he does. We also had a lot of tactical, like howto guide inside of there, and I’m thinking this will be a similar. Sort of framework where we talk about how she got into what she got into, but also, hey, can you just teach people what human-centered design is and how does it link up with all the other frameworks that people already use? what gap does it fill? One of the things that’s on my mind is there’s disk, there’s pi, there’s Myers Briggs. but there’s all these different frameworks that you can take a, a test on or a quiz on or study and learn about where does this fit in and what gap is it filling or is it just another one of the same, which is fine. It might speak to some people better than others. Totally great. But I’m curious about her perspective on that and just to give some real life tools and probably to learn some more myself.

REID: Yeah, it should be awesome. Really excited. Yeah,

JOE: I’m looking forward to it.

JACQUELINE: good. So do you also get even, sorry, like podcast tech? Yes. Yes. If you need anything, Yeah, Sounds like you have plenty.But that’s like what my, yeah. Office looks like right now. It’s just like stuff everywhere. I guess so I’ll tell you the quick story. Sure. I don’t need to talk about all day, but,about two years before I got my first microphone, I remember telling my husband, I was like, oh, what if I did a podcast? Just because I really liked them. Yeah and were kind of new and I don’t know, I was like, I have something to say. Did I know what to say? No. But I just knew that something needed to come out of me. So I told my husband, I was like, what if I started a podcast? He’s like, great. The next day there was a podcast on my desk, one of those like little Yeti ones.

You know what I’m talking about? And I was like, oh, you want me

JOE: it.

JACQUELINE: no, like, start your podcast. I was like, about what? So it took me a year figure it out. And then I had a friend in a little mastermind, I was in Go, Jacqueline, keep talking about this podcast. what’s the date on when your podcast is gonna launch? And 30 days later I had launched. So it took me like two full finally put it together. But once I did, I made the mistake of asking for any advice or any help and I just did all the research.

And so my text’s a little bit not as cool as that. I mean, that one’s like rainbows So, we bought Mike’s, but you have on the desk and and we have the handhelds cuz I was doing in-person shows as well. I don’t know how many, I probably have nine mics at my house. Wow. No. Yeah. now. The Yeti. Really easy to just like, plug into your computer. Yeah. most of the timeI work digitally. And so I’m just talking

JOE: do you find that you use the MIC for, other meetings as well? Yeah. it’s better quality.

JACQUELINE: Yeah. And I can tell when one of my colleagues is using a mic, I’m like, Ooh, I see you. Yeah, I but teach me a lot about production and I’m really glad that I know about it now because it’s supportive.

JOE: Yeah, totally. Especially in a world where, like for coast, right?

JACQUELINE: Yeah. We’re actually everywhere,

JOE: the ability to give a good experience to your team, To people you interview with leadership, et cetera. It’s just and like you wouldn’t have that skillset if you didn’t know production,

JACQUELINE: Yeah. and I’m a recruiter, so I’m outward facing and I think of it as a sales role. it is people, the impression that they have of me is the impression that they have of the company I turn those lights on, I got production going. We have a little mic and they’re like, oh, like I try, no Brand Number chard. but I tried.

JOE: Well, and there is something about just like the trying of it that nice, right? It shows to people like, I care about you because I’m giving you the best of myself.

JACQUELINE: yeah, exactly. Yeah. my team makes fun of me because I’m not. A casual person. And one day I was wearing like a hoodie, and they’re like, oh my gosh, Jacqueline’s in a hoodie. I was like, I’m sorry. I kind of came in hot this morning with some payroll and some heads down work, and they’re like, it,

JOE: like the tone down. So what would be, you said this is sort of just down for she’s in a blazer. I’m like a casual blazer. It’s pretty It’s kind Flowy. what would be your normal, what would be your normal Where Like, this is where I feel like I’m dressing at the level I normally dress.

JACQUELINE: Okay. Good question.

pair of. I’ll say high waisted pants, probably jeans. Okay. any kind of blazer. one fits the whole jeans or even leggings vibe I’m also a mom and we’re really active chasing kids around.Right. So you can just take it off and then do the cooking and mom thing. I like outfits that you don’t have to like, fully change out

JOE: okay.

JACQUELINE: Yeah. you can just kinda like do the whole switch from parenting to work, back to parenting, back to work. And so a blazer goes over anything and step Dr. Dresses it up.

JOE: So I feel like I look like I’m wearing a costume when I wear a blazer.

JACQUELINE: You look great today. Is that how normally dress,

JOE: this is actually pretty much the underneath jacket has I wish I could You can totally pull it off. hoodie thing underneath. Yeah. Throw it on. it a thing. because like I, I’m in a sales role Right? And so to your point about the way you present yourself matters, and when I was still like running around with Tiffany all the time, we’d go to events and meetings and stuff and like, I business world and so like, bought a nice blazer and I love suits. We don’t wear suits around here.


JOE: funny story, I actually wore a suit to both of my first two

JACQUELINE: didn’t. Where they’re like, oh,

JOE: trust that I wasn’t supposed to. totally understand Oh, totally. this is a test. but every time I put a blazer on, I’m like, you look like you’re in a costume. Mm-hmm. So I’m in this moment where I’m like, I work for a creative firm. And it doesn’t actually make sense to dress that way. To represent us. But I don’t want to just like, creative casual, sort of like jean jacket, hoodie, jeans, sneaks kind of vibe doesn’t always play. And I need to find this like middle ground between the two. that has like, can’t just be like another dude. also an Agram being one of many oh really well with fours. So you know what identify with as a type two. Okay. can feel that. Yeah. I wing hard three. three. was a three for a very, very long time. I’ve only just realized in the last, I dunno what it’s been two months,Yeah. recent that I’m like, it’s four. Oh,

JACQUELINE: just, okay.

JOE: but one of the things that I cannot be another normal white guy in a gingham No. an event. It’s just like I can’t there.

JACQUELINE: love this. blazers for men can go really well hoodies. This is true. I think you could pull that off really well.But then what do I do in the summer? can’t wear a hoodie in the summer. Yeahlike, why are you wearing a hoodie? I’m like, well, air great question. I’m so passionate about it. It’s so interesting and I’m so short, there’s always like Really, there’s always like a little heel that comes with me just. Two inch, two

JOE: I didn’t think you as being short.

JACQUELINE: Oh, good. It’s like I’m five three. I guess that’s a little bit below average. Yeah, Women’s average. Five. Five. Mm-hmm. I’d say 5, 5, Yeah, so it’s, anyway, fashion, it’s so interesting and it’s just, it’s all about, how you feel when you walk into a room. And I will say this working so digitally, you said you’re hybrid. I’m primarily digital there are clothes that. Look great on Zoom that don’t look good in person and vice versa. So I have like zoom outfits and like andI will tell you, for the first year of pandemic, I was in a pseudo sales, battle. but I wore heels for the first year because that’s when I was using going into an office day. I had heels without my desk. I lost me. fun of me. I I was like, I don’t know any other way. Like part of my routine is getting up and getting ready, and it’s important for my ability to just like a success mindset is just being an outfit. I can’t wear my sweats or my pants to work and let. circumstances I don’t feel well. Something like that. Yeah. It’s interesting

JOE: we were full remote for a period of time, the pandemic and even post while we were getting moved into this office space. Cause we moved in here August of 21. So there was like a window between, we were at the pyramids, lease ended, the pyramids built out, finished here, lease started here. And during that, all that time we were full remote. And I was like the only person I knew who was still wearing, like, I would look just like this jeans, I’d always had shoes on.the one for me that triggers me is if I’m out, if I’m not in shoes, I feel like I’m not working. wearing? if you don’t choose. Well, I mean like if I’m at home Oh. And I’m just like sitting in my know what It’s like I would put on like anything on my feet to make sure that I was like in game zone most of the day. I would talk to me, be like, you’re not like in sweatpants. I’m like, no. I’m working. and I owned a gym for six

years. Are you serious? Yeah. I owned a CrossFit gym from 2016 to 21, like very beginning of 2016, very end of 21. it was like, so if I was in athletic gear, I was in that work. I was in that mode. I was either training or I was coaching or I was working on that business. And so the like I created space for myself that I didn’t realize I did this until it became such a topic in the pandemic of having a space that was your workspace to, versus your home space. And that became a real topic to your, I didn’t realize I was doing that with clothes, it was like, all right, when I took off my Element three stuff And I tr and I put on sweats, CrossFit gear, whatever, and put on training shoes again, I kind of finished it off with the shoe. it felt like, okay, you’ve gotten out of that business and you’re into this business. And so I think I just have this feeling around clothing and how I. Show up in that moment, to me. veryinteresting me.

JACQUELINE: I haven’t talked to a lot of people with the same micro or we just don’t forget. intentional with what is on on my body. Yeah. at every moment because, and wanna get my work clothes, and clothes dirty from cooking my family and meals. And then, you know, getting it 20 from going running after that. So.

JOE: Well, this is actually a really good segue into one of the things I wanted to ask you, which is, your consulting practice And you have grown day. Yes. And then also you have all the other roles that people take on individually, Mom, wife, anything else that you’re into, you know, hobbies, you’re a friend, you’re a daughter, like all these other roles that we take on. How do you like, think about your days? Because I’ve heard people go, oh yeah, I have a day that’s dedicated to this business. I have a day that’s dedicated to this business. time that’s only meant for family. Are you like, are you somebody who’s very structured in that way? Do you like it to flow I’m just curious how you think through that.

JACQUELINE: Ooh, that’s a great question. Every day seems like the same day, but every hour of every day is treated very intentionally. So I am very structured. I live by my calendar and it also helps, being in a service-based role. Like I schedule conversations with people and so that is the structure of the day. I’m on a heavy routine. So morning takes on, I’m have a certain, I don’t know, costume on, I’m pretty much mom, and then I’ll call it me. So I’m doing my routine. What fills me up, it, I’m working out, I’m getting for the day. I’m getting nutrition ready for the day, then I’m colleague or business leader or whatever you wanna call that. And that can be a couple of different roles. So I’m definitely heavy on Growth Day, as a startup, and my own podcast Yeah. and, planning those things. And then it goes back to mom and then it goes back to, so it’s like every hour, depending on what day of the week it is, but it’s mostly everything.Every day is the same day.

JOE: I have to imagine that your ability to like, context switch is very high. It’s so exhausting. Yeah. Well it’s even if it’s good, it’s hard. Right? It’s ha. Have you found there’s like triggers you use or, or things you do to be like, all right, this is me times my focus is not my kids. I’m mom. My focus is now my work, my focus now on this work. Is there like any sort of physical or mental trigger you do for yourself to make it easier or make you more effective in that moment?

JACQUELINE: That is such a good question. I try as much as anybody else to focus and turn off the distractions because the phone is a real distraction. we use it for work, but we also use it for play and relationships and friendships and entertainment and all of the things. And so I try really hard to get in the zone and usually that has to do with, Focusing my audio brain, if that Yeah So when I’m in the flow on something, there has to be some sort of music like white noise happening so that anything outside, even if, especially when there are people and pets in my house, which there always is, I can just ignore it. Is I do, like you mentioned, have my own space that is work, but that also sometimes becomes my like cave or my haven To recharge mentally. Yeah. and so I, I would say going into every hour, I do have intentions, like what is the intention for this hour what do I wanna get out of it? But also how do I wanna show up? And honestly, my intention every single morning and I use the intentions setting up my Growth Day app. Very I was gonna say very, Oh my gosh. I’m obsessed with my Growth Day app. both the mobile and the desktop, and I can talk about it later. I don’t wanna be seen like a walking ad for it, but flows in and out of my life so readily. Yeah. what I basically do is I set a reminder. How up in every moment of every day? And my intention for every morning, it pops up like seven 30 in the morning after I’ve been doing things for a little bit joyful, connected, and purposeful. And that just when you have that, in your subconscious all day long, as you walk into every moment, you’re like, okay, I’m spending my time here. My energy is the most valuable thing that I have. What needs to come out of this? Or how can I serve in this way? And so that’s really when you dial it down, what I’m trying to do in every moment. But also I have so many plans, as do you, right? what I wanna do every week, but what I wanna do every day.and so every morning I. set myself straight. What are my daily finishers? If I had three things to do today, what would it be? Just like anyone else, what needs to move to the next day, blah, blah, blah. That whole thing. What didn’t get done today? What happened last night at 11:00 PM that I need to get done this morning? That’s what happened this morning. everything is very regimented and very planned, but at the same time, I leave so much space for flow, because I am someone who also follows the energy of each moment Andy and tries to that what my body is telling me in every moment is actually what it means. being bring joy. Yeah Which my attention. And there’s no way to live. And, but especially before they’ve been going hard, so regimen. And again, the wing three that you and I connect on did a lot of things, but, really found that

JOE: Yeah, it’s interesting. Oh, there’s many places I want to go here anyway, one thing I want to comment on is I actually think your intentionality is very rare. You said in the there, like, you know, the three things I wanna get on like everybody else. And I don’t think that’s very regular. I think if you, if you walked out into the normal world, if you will even like, probably out into our office and you said, Hey, what are your big three that you have to get done today? I use a full focus planner, so I’m gonna use that language, the big three. And you’d probably get a s a couple people who are like, this, and this. But other people do not have that in front of them. Or a place to turn and be like, am I getting farther? And I, frankly, I find that I’m somebody who naturally is fairly intentional, but just because never took the time to like actually write it until the start of this year.And it’s like game changer. Because if what did I get done today? And when you have a day that doesn’t, you know, something comes up, a meeting moves, it was the biggest thing on your day, and then you’re like, oh no, I got nothing done. And you’re sort of in that moment it was really helpful to go back and be like, oh, I still got all of this done. So I’m pining that for a second. The other thing I was gonna say is you mentioned like the wing three sort of took over. And I felt that way as well. Pre pandemic post pandemic for a period. it was 14 hour days. jobs. like I was running my gym, I was working here.That was my life. I spent all day working on both of them. and I was showing up. if I asked somebody like who knew the anagram? Who do you think you, who do you think I am? would always tighten me as a three because it’s the only thing I was showing up as. And showing up in that way is largely encouraged both by the people who are benefiting from you, showing up in that way and from general American society.Right. So I’m curious, did you ever think you were

JACQUELINE: a three primarily? a hundred percent. Yeah. It, I was just always going. like you, and I appreciate you sharing that intentionality piece. I am thankful to be surrounded by high performers and so sometimes, yeah. My, my perspective is a little shifted. and at the same time, growing up was always just trying my absolute best, achieving best. And that definitely followed me into my adult career. if I wasn’t going above and beyond an always kind of like one upping myself, if you will, then I was like, what am I even doing with myself? But truthfully, that takes its toll on other areas of your life. like in my wellness. So physical health, my relationships. and you know, once you start really having to put other people before you, like your family and your kids, you really have to figure out okay, what are my priorities? that’s how I realized from firsthand experience that my energy was the most valuable Because when you aren’t feeling in tiptop shape all the time, and I work really hard on my health, but there are times when my energy isn’t always the highest and it’s for a variety of factors.

And when you only have so much energy and when you only have so much time because you have these other, you know, responsibilities, that you’re taking care of, then you really have to think, okay, so what do I actually wanna achieve in my life? And then break that down. and that gets really meta really fast, but it made my career. I was thinking about my career very differently and I was thinking about purpose very differently. And those two things sometimes intertwine. I’m thankful that for me, they pretty much do. But there are other things to my life outside of my career that are my purpose. So it, it’s interesting. I think about purpose a lot. I think about identity a lot. I think about energy because in every moment, if I’m not really to focus on what I’m doing with my two hands and the precious, energy that I have, then all of the success that I’m experiencing or seeing, really matter as much. I don’t know, tell me if you’ve been here as well, you achieved something and you expect it to be a little different than it like a little let down. oh, I didn’t it feel good when on the way there I thought, oh my gosh, this is gonna be the best thing ever and I’m gonna feel amazing and all of my issues are gonna go away. And then you get it down and you’re like, that doesn’t feel like I thought it would.

JOE: What I was actually gonna ask you if you experienced that. So yeah. It sounds like you did times. when did that shift for you? was there a moment in time where you realized, this isn’t necessarily serving me, or this is not actually who I am so this? Yeah. Fra race doesn’t feel me?

JACQUELINE: I think so. I think one of the first times I really remember feeling this feeling. Was years ago. I thought that, I’ve always been a high achiever in career and really in life, and I remember sitting in my cubicle and a pretty impressive role, considering how old I was at the time. And I remember, like, I had just had my daughter, and so I had this like American dream coming to life, and I had all the things and I remember sitting around thinking, is this really it? this doesn’t feel good, this aligned. I’m not happy. I am sitting in a cube farm. I can’t barely see the sunshine. I barely see my daughter, but I’m, o obviously thankful she’s here. I’m a new mom. My relationship wasn’t where I thought it could be. I fullness. And honestly, this like the true definition of high performance is, Really vitality in all areas of your life. Not just what you’re achieving. what are you achieving everywhere? And I didn’t know what high performance was at the time. Really? What do you think it was back then? I didn’t even think that way. I just thought I’m always doing my best. I always wanna achieve the very best that I can. I if I see a top rank, I’m gonna grab it. know, if I can go, I’m gonna get there. there’s a score card, I’m going to win it. Right. If there, and it, it I wasn’t that person that was like going around and driving this competition. it didn’t show up that way. I didn’t appear that way. I was always just trying to make the best of the situation. And if there was a challenge, I was gonna fix it. If there was something to build, I was gonna build it. And that’s exactly what I was doing. But I sat and I looked around and I wasn’t happy. And that’s when I took a long, hard look at my life. And that’s when, I don’t know if you call it a quarter life crisis, but that’s what, what people have called it. element by element and there were more than three And so I was excited, once I figured out, but I was also terrified because I knew it made sense to me at the time that I had some really, really big shifts to And, so I did piece by piece and it took years, but I, along the way picked up not only knowledge intellectually, but knowledge in my being about what it means to really experience life And, know, I eventually shifted my role. I actually moved and that’s when I moved back to Indianapolis.

Where were you at this point? I was actually in Columbus, Indiana. I had moved, I, actually wasn’t in that relationship anymore. and I, went on this brave journey of figuring out kind of who I was and also, still experiencing growth in my career, experiencing growth as a parent, and experiencing just. Growth and vitality as a person. And I started seeing the sun again in a lot of different and I, spent my time differently and I started figuring out what it is I do like don’t like. And that was the, I I would say the start, the crack that I experience in my shell start of the experience and the journey back that is a journey that I think we’re all here to there are a lot of as to, to support us as many tools. but for me, and I know we tell you in our last name, more resources and 12, I think made sense human design.

JOE: Yeah. I’m actually really, I was hoping this is the moment that you it or helped with that. it’s one of those things that, and I think I mentioned this to you, I’m very deep into the world like self-development. It’s just, I enjoy it. but I had never heard of human design, which a little like, oh great. Something new. And so I was hopeful that we could talk about it in depth today because, I’m interested in where it fits into the landscape of the PIs and the disks and the Enneagram and like all these different things that people use to really themselves and know others. And I’m curious about how it fits into all of that and what the process is like and all those


JACQUELINE: Yeah. Thank you. Well, I, I appreciate it. It’s one of my favorite things to talk about. And like you, I was also that person who was using all the resources and still do all the tools to try to figure out where I fit intersect with what and how they all go together.

JOE: I have a thing that I’m starting to feel like realize what I’m, mm-hmm. what looking for. But when you were like really deep into trying to navigate what you just said, what was the thing that you think for?

JACQUELINE: I think myself, I was looking for but also I was trying to figure out where I fit into the world. I was definitely on a path of self-discovery and I saw myself in all of these archetypes, but I didn’t necessarily, resonate as deeply really with them as I did human you why just a second. Yeah. but yeah, I didn’t know at the time what I was looking I want to feel fulfilled, I want to feel alive, I want to feel per, but I don’t have the

confidence that I’m path. I didn’t feel like I was completely right path, because I would, you know, have those cubicle moments where I’d look around and be like, is this it What’s happening? I know there’s, I’m not doing something right. So who’s gonna tell me what I’m doing wrong?

JOE: Yeah. it’s really interesting. I, want to go back to that moment. You’re sitting in the cubicle and like, I’m I’m supposed to be really happy I’m winning. Why do I not feel that way? is that an synopsis of that moment?

JACQUELINE: Yeah. Or at least fulfillment. I’ve had moments since then where I’ve found myself in a conference room again and I look around, I’m like, oh, not made to be a good in a conference room. This just feel right. But now the energy is not matching. it doesn’t. But now it’s for different reasons. But yeah, I’d say that’s pretty close.

JOE: Yeah. I was just curious, likeI think more people go through that themselves to think. Cuz it’s actually terrifying to make all those changes.

JACQUELINE: Oh, a hundred percent. But it fell at the same time I felt alive and I was excited, but also I. I mentioned there was a crack in my shell. Like eventually it got to my heart. Like eventually I, had completely opened up and was completely heartbroken. Like I was open wide world, take me, let’s do this. and it was the most spring feeling

JOE: did that happen quick, after you had the realization that you needed to change things? Or was there one of the changes that made that feel the most

JACQUELINE: Yeah, I, for some reason, Am a little wild and like to make multiple changes at my life at one time. Uh, okay. Okay, great. So I like a pattern of doing

JOE: Yeah, it’s one of my toxic traces and almost constant desire to blow something up So I I try to be cognizant of when I’m doing that and like, okay, you wanna blow it up? Does it actually need to be blown up or not? Like

flow chart, the decision making, but I have, I identify with, yeah.

JACQUELINE: And recently I’m kind of liking the feeling when something is just stable. I’m like, okay, let’s be comfortable here Oh wait, we’re too comfortable after one month. Okay, let’s move would say it was a combination of everything. Just so much change, so much moving, and just rediscovering who I am. all these new kind of positions I found myself in, cuz I was just going on autopilot, which I think a lot of can identify were just kinda moving and all of a sudden you think, why did I make all these decisions? am I doing what I’m doing? And you look around and you’re like, I actually don’t know. Let me take a beat.

JOE: Well you mentioned finding your purpose and I on a different with somebody else and I was like, I, think that’s way harder than a lot of people. Make it sound. how’d you go about finding that

JACQUELINE: That’s a great question. I still question it all the time.

JOE: I,cit actually is too. Because I think sometimes we get the message of you and then it’s there. then like your purpose can shift. So nice to know that you it regularly

JACQUELINE: I do because it’s not a task necessarily that I think I’m assigned to do. I think it’s an essence that I hold. And I think it is the energy that I bring to a situation and that changes. And I can say pretty consistently over the last couple of years that my purpose does, lend itself to being somebody who builds companies and parents, children and is raising and families. But I said there’s a lot of parallels there. Totally. Yeah. And the energy that I bring to it and kind of my, I don’t know, the is the purpose. And so some of my natural gifts, actually, this is one of the things that I love about human design. And I’ll put a pin in that if you’d like and explain. wanna

JOE: hear this, and then I do wanna do that.

JACQUELINE: Okay. Okay. Okay. so one of the things that I found in human design,it, details your natural gifts. And so when I think about my natural gifts, a lot of them I recognize and I thought, that’s easy. Anyone can do that. That’s common sense. But yeah. the reason why they’re your natural gift. Because they come to you so easily. And, there is a piece of human design that kind of talks about your overarching theme of your life, which a lot of people can call I looked at it,  it described me as somebody who basically is the director of an orchestra. And that makes perfect sense to me, just like moving all the parts and just constantly knowing when things need to flow this way, when things need to go this way. And knowing which resources to bring in to make things go the way they should or get better. And that describes me to a T and I was like, oh, that’s purpose. and it’s not a here’s your task, it’s in every moment, you know what to do. Which is totally I’m or the way that I’m impacting

JOE: space. A hundred percent. And it’s not something as defined as people would like. Of course. And so

JACQUELINE: a lot of times that’s why I think it’s something so readily talked about. It’s something that we honestly need to kind of choose and then act on ourselves and then re decide if that’s still in alignment with who we wanna be. So I do kind of shift my purpose every week, depending on what I’m working on. how am I bringing situation? How am I bringing my gifts to this so I just decide what my purpose is who I am

JOE: so let’s talk about I think it’s a good time to talk through what human design is. and just give details on Yeah That process. Thank, yeah. I think human design finds you when you’re ready for it. And the reason

JACQUELINE: why is because it’s different

JOE: than all the other systems

JACQUELINE: about. with the Engram and the disc and all the other ones, a lot of times you’re taking some sort of assessment and then kind of self, I don’t know, I’ll say diagnosing.

JOE: I am going to, not get on my soapbox reading those. You totally can. The anagram is not a test and people a wonderful tool. It’sa great tool, wonderful tool, which an incredible amount of attention and focus into a test side note a hundred percent. But, but because it’s been used that way, now most people know it as another disc, another pi, at Myers-Briggs, whatever.

JACQUELINE: Right. And those things probably shift throughout your life as you change. and how well you decide to And well you answer the question exactly, honestly are you answering them

JOE: aspirationally or answering them as who you are? exactly,

JACQUELINE: questions. How well are you able to, dive deep and how well do you even know yourself in the first place? So there are so many things with And I think that, yeah, all, they all have their place and for me, I was introduced to human design through a friend, and quickly learned that is a system that is based on something very different. It’s it’s not a test or a, any kind of, tool that you have to answer questions on. It’s actually based on where and when you were born. Oh, So it is based on, several different systems. One of them being astrology. I was gonna say that sounds

JOE: like astrology. Yeah,

JACQUELINE: Yeah, exactly. So it’s science-based. there again, a lot of different systems pulled together to human design. And it was, developed a li I wanna say, 40 years ago. for some reason the date has escaped me. so it’s hasn’t been around all that long, but what I found in human design and the way that it basically, there’s no, there are no two people with the same human design. And the way that it is described when I first saw it, if you saw it, it looks like a medical chart that was overlaid with a preschooler’s drawing that when they, yeah, in preschool. So it looks kind of crazy. And when I first saw it, I was like, I have to know everything, right? And I went into the deep dive and was like, I’m gonna learn all the things. So I did. and I joined actually a school that taught human design. consulting for businesses. They didn’t call it human design. They called it something else, but it’s totally human design. I was like, that is totally me. So anyway, I went off the deep end, and it was a blast. I’m so thankful that I did it, but the reason why I did that was when I first started diving in the way it’s described to you, it’s like, well, here’s your type. Well, then there’s more types and then there’s more types. So it’s kind of like, if you think about an inverted pyramid with the very, very top portion being like, okay, here are the five types. But then there are so many elements of, we’ll call it a chart, that when you pull together, it makes up your whole being. And it says it, it basically shares so many things about how meant to use your energy in the world. So it describes things like how you’re meant to use your energy. What is your best decision making strategy for you? how does your intuition sound to you? Specifically what environments are. like best for you and in which environments do you feel most, safe and creative? it shares things what’s your thinking pattern, what’s your communication What, energies are you most likely to pick up on? Which you most likely to, be giving out? It’s just like wild. Interesting. It’s interesting is what a great way to say it. And so I think one of the things, one of the resonated with, I resonated all of it to be honest, but one of the elements describes how you make decision. And for me, I will share this, very openly that I think confidence is one of the things that I will be working on my entire life. And, I think making decisions really involves a huge amount of confidence in order to do that well and to do it quickly. But what I learned through setting my human design is that my decisions are actually. Not meant to be made quickly. Oh, interesting. interesting. go handed, like normally confidence shows, quick decision making, right? Right? And so it’s really,the emotional piece of the system. So it, part of the system will say, are you like, do you give off the emotional energy not give off the emotional energy? And for me, being someone who gives off the emotional energy, I make decisions using my emotions. and at any moment in time, I’m either high on the emotional wave, low in the emotional wave or in the middle. that wave kind of gives a filter over how I’m seeing everything. So if you ask me if I’m in a good mood, if I wanna hang I’m gonna say yes. But if I give it some time to wave, I’m gonna say, oh yeah. Oh wait, no. Oh wait, I’m in somewhere in the middle. can make a decision. That’s

JOE: clear So do you like to make decisions in the middle? Is that

JACQUELINE: goal? Yeah. The goal is to make decisions in the middle and depending on, the scope of the decision or the importance of the decision, you can figure out how long really you need to wait before you’re clear. it took practice for me to know when I was clear enough to make good sound decisions. it’s not necessarily something that the business world loves.

JOE: Well, I was gonna ask you that question around have you found times where it makes sense to go with your decision when you’re on the high or on the low? Mm-hmm When like those are actually the right times to make decisions. Yeah. it’s interesting

JACQUELINE: that And for me it’s been a huge experiment and I think human design is one big experiment. you find yours, you play with it. And it’s not like you can just like, put it on and I’m gonna do my design, right? It’s like, does this describe you, yes or no? In what pieces of you kind of need to fall away in, in order for you to feel like you’re coming back to yourself?

JOE: And I’ve seen like a, statue chipping Yes. where it’s like, you are this thing, and you’ve mentioned a crack in the shell. I was having a conversation internally with somebody about, putting on armor. And it sort of feels like you’re chipping away the armor on the outside until you get back to who you are.

JACQUELINE: Yeah. I’d say that’s a really good way to describe it. and with decision making, it is interesting. I pretty much instantly know how soon and how quickly I need to make the decision or if I need to ask for more time. That really depends on the scope. if I don’t have an answer for you right away, for example, I need to come back to you. Make this decision or come up with a response or come up with a plan or a strategy. But, if it’s something that’s maybe a lower scope or something that doesn’t impact as many people, then we can make it a little bit more quickly and with help. that was one of the things that gave me a lot of confidence was to learn that making decisions over time and really waiting for clarity and knowing that I’m that emotional person. And that’s correct for me, was huge for my confidence because whole it was like, okay, the can go away and it’s not like,crying at a meeting.That’s not talking about. Yeah.

JOE: It’s like that,

JACQUELINE: enthusiasm about life and the genuine excitement that comes up about things and the feeling low, low for no reason. that’s actually part of my being and who I and it’s really nice to be in a place now where that is celebrated. My, my enthusiasm is okay, Yes, you’re in the right spot.

JOE: you just mentioned the low lows. How do you view them now they come up? how do you think about them?

JACQUELINE: That is such a good question. I think of them as my creative time.

JOE: Oh really? Like when you’re in a bad spot? Yeah. It’s your creative time. Really Yeah,

JACQUELINE: because when I’m down, and honestly, it’s something that’s so interesting because I think human design is great for thinking about yourself, but it’s amazing for thinking people close to you. so I know my husband’s, he knows his and he knows that he’s not an emotional, and so he picks up on my emotions before I do. Like he can sense my wave from eight feet away. He’s like, what’s your problem? I’m like, problem. He’s like, Come on. I’m like, oh, you see the wave? I’m like, you know what? I dunno. Actually, I was just kind of thinking, I don’t really feel like doing anything. He’s like, yep, there it is. And I’m like, yeah. And so I was going to like, turn that into, writing, you know, that I’m trying to do for work. when I’m not feeling like I’m not feeling do, like doing anything, I guess that’s a for me to say. I don’t feel like being on meetings. I don’t feel like celebrating on Zoom right now. You don’t wanna give out energy right now? I feel excited about much. Yeah. I’m about things, but when down I just kinda wanna like be solo, the And so like deep work work.

JOE: So this is actually a really interesting and tactical point that I think’s important because you hear, you mentioned deep work. Have you read Deep Work Newport?Okay. One of the things he talked about in the book is like scheduling your deep work time. But if that you do your best and most effective deep work and conversely you do your worst and least impactful outward work in a, in an energy low, but you’re not, like, I know that every Thursday morning from 9:30 AM I am on an energy low. how do you like take control? You also said, I live by my calendar. How do you take control of optimizing for your energy in a moment when you also have commitments have places that you frankly have to go and perform? And I’m sure there’s not an exact science here, but I’m curious about how you’ve done that, where you’re like, I need personal time that can be used on heads down work.Cuz I don’t want to give out energy right Mm-hmm while you also have a calendar is the greatest puzzle of my life because I wanna know how everybody does this. like I

JACQUELINE: mentioned, I schedule pretty much everything out in advance, but if it doesn’t feel right in the moment, I will change it with the exception of commitments with people. Yeah. So as, as much as I can, I keep those commitments whether I’m feeling great or not, I make myself feel great. I do that dance party. How do you do? Like, how do you do The dance party? I gotta go if you’re ready. Yeah. Well, I mean, I’m very connected to, again, my intention, but I’m also very connected to the goals. So Obviously at work we have goals, but I have my own goals. Like I want ev everyone to walk away from me, being excited and feeling revved up to do something or feeling inspired about something. And so I just reconnected to those. And honestly, just being at anyone with you usually gives I just love hearing about people. I’m naturally curious, Yeah. asking people about themselves honestly so I just kinda use that as like a ramp to be like we in the air.and once you’re there you’re Totally of the wave. Yeah. but I mean it’s, I part of the process and just we

JOE: relate a lot of the stuff we talk about on here back to fitness because Reed’s a real avid runner and I’m a real in the weeds CrossFitter. and there are times where I leave Element three and I’m on the way to the gym and like I’m just. There. I’m like, Ugh, I’m just tired. I know this is gonna be like really hard. I know that I’m gonna go through a moment where I wanna quit. that’s one of the reasons I love doing CrossFit, is that it makes me confront that day. but normally once I get through the warmup, it’s all gone. How do

JACQUELINE: How do you do moving,

JOE: just start warming up. Like, once you get through the warmup, it’s like, you’re already here. are you gonna do? Stop. You know, it’s like, there’s just sort of a mindset shift that happens, like whether it’s your first mile or you’re, you know, you’re meeting, you’re getting ready for a CrossFit, sort of workout for the day, like getting moving. And it’s super the mood to go to this meeting, but like, I’m gonna get there and I’m gonna be curious about people in five minutes in I’m gonna feel better. Right And I know it, and I know that the end of the down energy is like going to be there then I can get myself up for it. Okay. And then when you have the space to actually lean into that, you’re like, I don’t have a meeting, I can go use this in a different space where this energy is best utilized. Exactly.

JACQUELINE: And it. Conversely too, if I’m feeling up in a previously scheduled focus time, then I will try to do up type interesting. Be like recruiting. Okay. go find more people to talk to or connect with one of my colleagues

JOE: That’s interesting. I was coming back from the gym on Monday night this week I was driving back home to my house and I was in a high moment and I was like, I am so motivated to go do some prospecting right now. And it’s like, 8:00 PM You know, I’m like, you’re not getting home saying to your wife like, Hey, it’s great But like my, energy in that moment was like, do You want to go talk to people, go do it. Go that you sometimes don’t want to do. sometimes you wanna do, it. this is one of those times like, but it didn’t work in life. But sort of that same thing of, oh, unexpected burst, use Yeah, exactly. talks about priming a lot, and so part of the routine that he suggests is, and that he does, is getting himself ready for action every day. And action a lot of times for him speaking, but he will, you know, literature out loud, like motivating literature be like, this is me getting ready to serve.

JACQUELINE: same thing with the warmup. Yeah. I do the same thing like seven o’clock in the morning. I am probably half even though I have the kids and I am not interested in working out, but I do it anyway. And it sucks I feel great after. Yeah, exactly. So I think you’re right. I think it, for me, it’s just being really regimented, but at the same time, if the energy can shift and I need it to, then I just move things around Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Helpful.

JOE: when most things do not cost the money to go take the class on. how do people start getting into human design outside of, I’m gonna join a school, I’m gonna takewhat are the resources that exist? Can you even get there on your own you can’t.

JACQUELINE: You totally can. And when I started, they didn’t exist, which why I’m so excited about talking about That’s why I took that class. I wanna know all the things. now there are some amazing out there. The one that I recommend is an app and their, the free version is fantastic. You’ll get so much just from that. And it’s called My Human Design. And the reason why I love it is because it’s so just in plain language, breaks down what the elements of your chart are and will either share them with you via text or read them to you. It’s just so simple. There is a paid version too, and you can, get your friend’s charts and your partner and do all that fun But if you just wanna know the nitty gritty, like I highly recommend going and downloading it. And that’s like, I would say one. Level two is when you really start to intersect your chart with so for important people in your life, especially people that you a lot. yeah. It, everyone wants to know about

JOE: themselves. And so

JACQUELINE: I first started studying, was like, what the, what are you doing? And so I would just, I would, I found his chart and I would just start telling him little things about himself. I’d be like, so does this resonate? I learned this. Does this resonate? And eventually he’d be like, all right, tell me the whole thing. So warming him up was interesting at first, but think once it started resonating, he’s like, what are you doing? Yeah. And I was like, the most fun thing ever. you think it also had to do with

JOE: fact that I imagine you were clearly performing differently in your life? I’m gonna, I, performing

JACQUELINE: cause Sure. Showing up differently.

JOE: Showing up differently is the other way to say that. Yeah.

JACQUELINE: you already at that point, I mean, yes. I was light years different from the cubicle situation that I told a completely different person like six times over.

JOE: you feel then what was the impact of your own feeling outward?

JACQUELINE: That’s a good question. so being so cuz you’re into growth and transformation too. you know what it means to become a different every week of your life. but to compare that version of me with this version of me that I’m describing, and this was like even three or four years ago, version of me. I was completely different, but I was showing up, I was taking first of all. So I was doing do So like, before, use. the, Jacqueline before was like dreaming. I was in dream world. I was like, I’m gonna do all these things. yeah, I would, definitely work, but. Creating outside of that, you were saying yourself, you have multiple hobbies andI want us to do all these things. Well, this later version of me was doing all the things sometimes to a fault building, building, building. you know, I had dreams and I would go after was it more empowering or direction or was it both? I would say probably both. Okay. you know, starting anything at, first And once you start one thing,

JOE: it’s easier to start the then once you the thing is easier when you know why you’re starting the thing. So like the direction it Mm-hmm. Where it’s like, like for example, in my age bracket just turned 30 every, And true millennial is I’m hustle. I was sitting around one day and I was like, you know, it’d be cool to think through what side hustle I could have. Mostly I was interested in thinking through of like almost of like, what skills do you have? process. And then I kept setting a like note in my planner, like think through your side hustles. And I never did it. And I was like, why am I not doing this? And I was like, oh, because I don’t want one. It was like, I’m not motivated to even get off of the star line cause I don’t want one, I don’t care to have one. And I’d much rather put all of of my, like, why would I take energy away from Element three. And think about something differently when this is both what I’m inspired by, motivated by, and rewarded by. there was no motivation to do it. So my getting off the start line was zero. So the direction was wrong. made the, I like the action never take place. And I’m curious if when you were sitting in, we’ll call it Cubicle land. Cubicle land, Jacqueline, like just lacked the impetus to go because you didn’t feel like going

JACQUELINE: Yeah. And I didn’t feel like I had the support. It does take a lot to do something new. Yeah. And it’s scary. And I mentioned, I had all these business ideas and all these things I wanted to create back then, but at my foundation, I didn’t feel safe and secure. Like I didn’t feel be that person. Yeah. there were other things I needed to take care of first, and that’s I started, was with, my relationships and my health and my daily fulfillment and, habits. And so making all those kind of fundamental moves moved me into the next level of being able to be creative with my time and build new things with my And I had, for me, I did have a vision of figuring out how to build a business and figuring out how to do consulting, in addition to building, my, my day job and I had that vision for and a family, I had that vision for myself. I saw the need, I had friends who could easily made connections, and it was just fun for me, kinda wanted to see if I could do it. and I was just genuinely, that was my version of fun. And it also allowed me to learn quite a bit, very quickly. and so if I’m doing all of those things, I’m fulfilled. And as I’ve told you, like I’ve sunseted something so like first podcast show done, like consulting, the first two versions of that done, done sunset. So it’s like we’re always moving on to the next thing. And I think you bring up a really good point of you had this idea that you wanted to build a side hustle, but you actually didn’t. And so I think it’s really interesting, I later learned. That all my ideas aren’t for action. I learned that not every idea is meant for action. And so I learned just to have a of and that’s a, and with my decision making strategy too, I put it in the parking lot and if I can figure out like which quarter of the year it’s gonna go into, and when I get to that quarter, if still feels like really important and it makes sense and I saw the energy for it, then I go for it.If not, it

JOE: goes to a different quarter or out out the parking lot. Yeah. That makes sense. earlier when you were talking about decision making, if you set deadlines for yourself so that you don’t. Oh, I’m just like, okay. If you’re a salesperson, oh, I’m gonna think on that. Every piece of your training is like, don’t let them think on it. They just want to say no.

JACQUELINE: hate that

JOE: my, in my world when somebody’s like, oh yeah, I need to go think about it, my follow up was like, Hey, I’m not trying to do the salesperson thing where I’m like, when can I follow up?

JACQUELINE: how do we move this Thank you, Joe, for being a great salesperson.

JOE: great. Thank you. I try

JACQUELINE: very hard to be great. but you’re also not wanting that thing to

JOE: linger forever in the distance. So how do we, how do you address that when you’re like, I need time, but I don’t know exactly how much time I need. Do you set deadlines

JACQUELINE: Or do you like this parking lot and quarterly idea. That’s I do, I I use my calendar for that as well, Good. so if I’m trying to make a decision on something I’ll have on my calendar. have you decided or I’ll just put the, I’ll put the topic and I know what it is. Yeah.and then I also also share a task list with one of my

JOE: colleagues. he creates some accountability with an account. It’s smart by the way,

JACQUELINE: trying to make a decision on that’s gonna stay there until Mikes be like, okay. Yeah,

JOE: yeah

JACQUELINE: Yeah. things like that but I have it somewhere There are way too many things up there. And so have it somewhere so that I know that I can come back to it and be like, okay. What then what’s the sample of the energy now? Feeling good. Go. Well, it’s

JOE: interesting you brought up at the very beginning of the conversation that, when we were talking about your first podcast, that you took two years to start it, but it wasn’t until you externalized it to a group 30 later it was launched and then you mentioned, oh yeah, I’ll share it with a

JACQUELINE: colleague. This task list idea list that I

JOE: have to get through this decision list seems like you use, I don’t know if you do this intentionally, but you use people around you to like remind you you accountable to the things that you’re wanting do because

JACQUELINE: you have so many that you want to do. A hundred percent. And it, and while still taking ownership. And keeping the ownership, the balls in my court. yeah. That’s interesting that you share that. there are a couple of things there. Social learning theory, I isn’t only about learning, but social learning theory is like you just learn better when you’ve seen else do something. Or when you see somebody else learn. so I try to use that to my advantage goal And that’s a little bit separate. and then also social accountability. If I put it out there, it’s. happen because I care very much about the people in my life and that they know what I’m doing or not doing. one of my strong values integrity. So I too. and I deliver on what’s out there. it’s like, someone else can see it and I don’t cross it off problems

JOE: there’s incongruence there And mm-hmm. the, using the people around you cause you care a lot about them knowing what you’re I on disk and I have a very high need for approval. was gonna guess did as well. And I was talking to, Brian Kaki as our sales consultant. He’s honestly much more than a sales consultant, for us and for me individually. And I was chatting with him one day and I was like, generally speaking in sales, they say having a high need for approval is a bad thing. Because you don’t handle rejection well. You take things personally. And we talk about that all the time. And so for a very long time I’ve been trying to like eliminate my need for approval. what I finally like, you know what? I am never gonna It’s never going away. And the fight to get rid of it is futile and just frustrating. So I asked Brian, I was like, Brian, given that I have a high need for approval, it’s not going away. How can I use it? and he was like, oh yeah, that, that’s a thing. And then leverage it appropriately. it was like, I feel like you’ve just done that already, where it’s oh, I know that I desire that. The people that I care about, I want them to like me. Mm-hmm I’m gonna utilize that motivation to get

JACQUELINE: things accomplished by leveraging the fact that I care about them. I care about

JOE: So I’m like using them even though they don’t really know that I’m using them as a like motivational impetus. but it leverages my own Natural being to get things accomplished.

JACQUELINE: Yeah. Wow. I learned so much from some of my colleagues like, yeah, I just keep, I keep moving on. I don’t take that’s learned possible.

JOE: And

JACQUELINE: so to a degree there’s like a, I feel like a scale of being able to take things And one of the four agreements, is don’t take things personally. And so I would say that is something that I’ve come a long way in, but there’s still elements, you know, when it like hits you like a dagger, you’re like, oh, I’ll still have growing there.Okay. how can I release that a little more?

JOE: When something’s going on and I’m starting to take it personally, I definitely take it at that I It’s a growth

JACQUELINE: for me. it’s an opportunity. and so I definitely see those as like triggers and areas that I probably need to go journal on right now. but it still exists. Yeah. Yeah.

JOE: So, as we wrap up, I’m curious, we talked about fitting into other frameworks that exist into other models that how do you layer it with Enneagram, with disc, with pi, with shrink finders, with everything else that’s out there that you actually use? How do you organize it in your

JACQUELINE: that is such a good question. with you, I’m not the scholar on this, but I think it’s a really good topic for me to do some research on. oh, that’s so cool, because I do use them. I do use a lot of them. Well, yeah. You’ve, you clearly have a control over the anagram. Yeah. Just a second one. And Myers Briggs, I mean, we’ve been using that forever. feel like that was the first one I ever knew about. Maybe, and I think they each have elements that should be brought together to bring forth like a full picture. and honestly I have an action bias, so I always wanna be able to take action on that. But at the same time, why do we use those in the first place? what are we organizing for ourselves? You asked me this question earlier, am I at work trying to fit into a group? Am I trying to work with a group? Am I trying to understand? Things about myself. I think they just each have their place. But at the same time, if you know all these things about yourself, then how are you using it? how are you using it to your being and how is it actually helping you? I think for me, being able to not only know myself more deeply, become more confident, and then also relate to others in a more empathetic helpful constructive way, has been why I use those tools. I’m like, okay, what’s my focus? each of them says a lot about someone when they say I’m a this. I’m like, okay, I know a lot about you. And I realize I don’t know everything. But that gives me at least a peek into who you are. Depend of some broad brush jokes. That when you do things, I can,

JOE: if I know I’m talking to somebody has like a 97

JACQUELINE: dominance profile they’re

REID: Okay Joe, so another great conversation in the books. Jacqueline was just, An awesome person to have on the show, a great person to be around. and obviously we were very curious about sort of her background and coming into this conversation, but you went where you did, what did you find the most interesting parts of your conversation

JOE: I was on that afterwards and I think the piece that really stuck with me after that conversation is, she makes doing very scary things seem very simple. if you think about it, she’s in a, big organization, nice title, sort of like building the career path. Has a child is married, has made a lot of decisions that feel. Like they are not decisions that can, or would argue, should be walked back. And she made some very hard changes in her life that I imagine were like very, very painful in the moment. and probably past a moment, like they’re probably a season of pain for those. and it clearly from the energy that she gives off, was the right thing for her, was the right thing for the environment, was the right thing for her situation. it was interesting to hear somebody just navigate that degree of change, in a way that was like beneficial for them.

REID: Yeah. One of the other things that I appreciated and it’s no surprise coming from her that like mindset is on point, but just hearing her talk about all the experiences, her outlook on things, like it was very clear that there’s a super healthy mindset about how she goes about making the decisions that she does and then making the decisions in career life, all those different things. and just in how she sort of. Views the world as we were going about that exploration. I was like, yeah, this is a person who has out, has spent clearly a lot of and mindset to navigate the different challenges in her life. That was really interesting

JOE: Yeah, she has a lot of self-awareness about her own needs. I would say like, I need space to make a decision on this one, and that’s okay. I don’t have to like, apologize for being slow. Whereas I think a lot of times I know I bucket, not the time. whatever expectation we’ve internalized about like the way the world works, we try to put that belief system. and her talk about the decision making one is the one that really sits as we reflect on it. but being able to say like, this one fast is wrong, so I’m gonna wait and just say to people like, can’t make a decision yet. There’s no reason that I can’t make a Did I have.

REID: the information? I don’t need to get anything else. I just, it’s too big for me to sit on right now I think it creates a really healthy dynamic with your teams too, right? If it’s not like this constant pressure to have the decision on the spot every single time,

JOE: creates some psychological safety too. If someone actually own that for themselves, that for the other people around, seeing that there is another

REID: make the quick decision

JOE: time I think kinda thing. Yeah. And I think last piece, just to wrap up, I was, it just hit me at, I think if I would like assign a word to her, episode and what we took away from her. It was like a lot of bravery from her, like a lot of courage to do something that would be scary. a lot of stepping into who you are, which. leading in that way. Like not literally leading people, but leading with yourself into your life, having your own consulting practice. those are all like putting yourself out there.

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