Succeeding Beyond Your Comfort Zone with Darren Halbig

Joe Mills: What shared experiences motivate today's business leaders to keep growing and how have their unique stories impacted the way they enable others to do the same? I'm Joe Mills,

Reid Morris: and I'm Reid Morris,

Joe Mills: and we're investigating what and who it takes to build companies that foster growth in people and business.

Reid Morris: Then we're sharing those stories with you.

Joe Mills: This is 1,000 Stories, an original show from Element Three.

This next conversation we're gonna talk to Darren. And Darren's been at Element Three for like nine years now. So he is really been here through a lot. And one of the main learnings from our conversation with Tiffany was around this idea of what motivates her to grow.

And for her, it really sounded like I grow because I'm just interested in affecting those around me, right? This like bubble impact. And then it's like the bigger I can make my bubble, the more I can affect people and I am capping everybody else at my own levels. And like with Darren, I'm very curious. He's just such a different personality type than she is.

And he's really come through large agency background. And then he came here, build a creative team, essentially from scratch. And I'm just really interested to learn what motivated you to make that switch? What motivates you to keep doing what we do here? Which goes through these like, phases of like really crazy.

And everything's kind of on fire and I mean, it has continued to be hard.

Reid Morris: Yeah. It's always hard, right? And that he's signed up for that, right? Coming from a place that not only was larger and had more structure, but in theory, like we're still figuring out a lot of things in an organization that's 17 years old. There's a lot of work that needs to go into that. And a lot of friction that Darren, um, the creative team and the rest of the people really have to work through so much.

Joe Mills: And my assumption is, well, everybody wants to be part of building it, but that's my assumption. And so what I'm curious about talking to him about is why do you continue to choose it over and over again?

And what gets you outta bed to come and do this all the time?

Reid Morris: And I think there's an interesting opportunity in this conversation with him to take a step back because there's going into this environment at Element Three and the difficulties of building creative team over the last. Like we said eight, nine years, but also he has a really interesting background outside of this space.

Right? I mean, he was competitive in cycling yeah back in college. And he has all these different areas that sort of show and give a little insight into what his mindset could be because of things that he chose to participate in, and he's still a highly competitive individual, even if that doesn't come through super forward in the way he shows up.

So I think there's a lot of like, mindset things to dig into there that show up not only within these walls, but outside as well.

Joe Mills: Yeah. I'm definitely gonna take Darren back to college today. I want to hear actually, maybe even farther than that, his parents have an interesting story too. And there could be an element of that that comes up into the conversation.

They ended up fostering a lot of kids after their biological kids were outta the house. And so understanding, like how did that impact you and how did that lead you to make the choices that you make now? I wanna get away from the professional choices and also understand how life has almost bred those choices.

Like it becomes the natural choice because of my background.

Reid Morris: We're also at a place organizationally where we have a lot more clarity, a lot more figured out than we did. There's still a long way to go. But now that some of these foundational pieces are coming together a little more settled, like what's next for him?

What is he trying to do for everybody else around him? Like Tiffany has, right. He's elevating other people on the creative team. Yeah. I think there's just a lot that we could dig into there.

Joe Mills: You said something interesting. I never experienced competitive Darren. He's just so mellow for me, the word that comes to mind when I hear Darren is not competitive and you've mentioned it like three or four times.

Reid Morris: Yeah. See, here's the thing. I don't feel it here, but then we use this app Strava for running and cycling, that kind of thing. Right? Then when I get a text from him in the evening, it says, Hey, I ran more than you did today and I'm double your age. That's when I see that competitiveness come through.

Joe Mills: I love it. I'm bringing that up.

Reid Morris: But you know, that that's an underlying thing and yeah. Even if it doesn't show up explicitly, I'm sure he's on some level controls that competitiveness.

Joe Mills: I'm gonna open up with that. Oh yeah. I'm opening up with that.

Reid Morris: He texts me at like, you know, 8:00 PM, one evening. He's like, I ran further and faster than you today and kept my heart rate low. I was like, thanks bud. Thanks bud.

Joe Mills: Thanks bud. We'll chat after and I'll tell you what I learned. All right. Well, Darren, thanks for coming on.

Darren Halbig: Thanks for having me, Joe.

Joe Mills: Darren. You're so welcome. I'm gonna start with some internal battles that I learned about. Apparently when you beat Reid on Strava, you've got some trash to talk. Can you talk about that for a second?

Darren Halbig: I don't beat Reid often on Strava but when I do, I let him know.

Joe Mills: Yeah. Keep doing that. Please. We need somebody. He obviously has too large of an ego.

Darren Halbig: Well, when you run every day and you're injured half the time, it's easy to find those moments where I know I can go out and beat him.

Joe Mills: So I'm curious, one of the things that Reid and I talked about when we were getting ready for the show is, Reid said the word competitive about you two or four times in our like five minute conversation. And my response to that was I have not experienced competitive, Darren. Have you always been that?

Darren Halbig: Yeah, I don't like to lose. Maybe I could tell a story about the day I almost killed my wife.

Joe Mills: Okay. Let's start there. That sounds terrible.

Darren Halbig: But we were trying to find ways to just spend more time together. So on maybe the hottest day of the year, about probably 15 years ago, I was like, let's go for a run. And we went out for a run.

She made it like two miles and we were running fast, like eight minute miles. And I was like, okay, that was awesome. Like you did amazing. And I went out and kept running and came back and she was laying on the kitchen floor on the tile because it was cold. She got mad at me because I pushed her, but I didn't want to slow down to ease her into it.

And she now will not do anything like that with me cause she thinks I'm gonna like kill her. It's all because I didn't want to like ease off. I wanted to get her there fast, like so we could go out and run together and she'd be like on pace with me.

Joe Mills: So you mean like get her to your level of fitness as quickly as possible?

Darren Halbig: Yeah. It didn't work out really well.

Joe Mills: It's amazing. Your parents did something interesting after you all left the house, right? Or was it while you were still there?

Darren Halbig: No. So I have two sisters and a brother there's four of us. And after we all left the house, my parents started fostering children. And I don't know what the number is.

They've maybe had 70 to a 100 children through their house, but they ended up adopting three children, a boy and two girls, and the girls are now in high school and it's been a really cool journey.

Joe Mills: So when they started fostering, were you like, that is exactly what I would expect my parents to do?

Darren Halbig: I thought they were crazy.

But it's amazing to see what they've given back and how they've changed kids' lives and the opportunities that they've given them. And I think they've won like foster parent of the year and the state of Indiana, like twice. It's been really cool to watch.

Joe Mills: Yeah. I ask cause I'm interested in that sort of mentality and that sort of personality and like how it imprinted on you growing up.

Darren Halbig: Yeah, my parents were both teachers and then when I was born, my mom stopped teaching to stay home and she started to run a daycare. And so children were always just a part of their life. And it's been something that they've always put importance around it and taking care of others and just giving they're very selfless people.

And I think that watching that as you grow up and being around that, it's hard not to kind of absorb it and make it part of who you are. I think it's probably impacted me in the way that I try to be a leader and try to show up giving of myself and being one of those people that I'll stay here all night long if I have to, to help someone get something done.

But I think I could probably owe that to my parents and watching them do the things that they've done through their life.

Joe Mills: That brings me to one of the questions I had in my head. As we were walking in, you have an interesting background. Can you walk us through college to getting to Element Three and what that journey looked?

Darren Halbig: I wanted to be an architect all through high school. I thought that's what I wanted to do even probably before high school. And when I took the SATs, they were like, eh, your math scores probably aren't quite there.

Joe Mills: Your little smile there was telling me that maybe math was hard a challenge.

Darren Halbig: It was a growth, challenge opportunity.

It didn't interest me. Let's just say that. But when I got to ball state, they were like, oh, you probably could have got. And so with my other experience and things that I'd done, they offered a summer program for architecture. And everybody I talked to was like, you don't want to do this. Like, it'll kill you.

Like you have to want to do this with every part of your being. At the time I was like, okay, I don't wanna do that. So I thought, oh, I'll just be a business major cause you know, I wanted to make money when I got outta school and I thought that's what I should do. And so I started taking the business classes and the same math thing that bothered me, like when I got into accounting and finance really wasn't good this whole time, my parents had been telling me I should have gone into art because it was something that I was always good at, but I didn't know what you could do with an art degree.

And I didn't wanna be some starving artist on the street.

Joe Mills: Do you think that you knew that? Or do you think you were just trusting other people that you didn't wanna put yourself through it?

Darren Halbig: I don't really know. Part of it was probably things that were happening at home with family and girlfriends at the time.

And I was just like, I don't want to do this. So I started taking art classes that second semester and it just came easy to me. Through those, I found design. And at the time you had to do a portfolio review to get into that. So I was like two years behind.

Joe Mills: Yeah. Did you have any portfolio at that point?

Darren Halbig: No, I had zero, so I had to build it all from scratch in like two semesters to get into the design program. Basically, I ended up spending six years getting an art degree, which was ridiculous.

Joe Mills: I love that so much, but I don't wanna be a starving artist, but I'm gonna take two extra years at college to, to get the art degree.

Darren Halbig: But I will say that the first two years and the business classes that I took, the marketing classes, I took all those things helped prepare me for the jobs that I had later. At the time I had no idea. I just wanted him to design cool things. The first exposure I had to an agency was I think maybe the second or third year of the design program.

We visited agencies in Indianapolis and over the course of time, you realize like, this is what I'm shooting for, but I had never stepped foot in one. I wasn't quite sure where all this was headed. I just knew that I really liked what we were doing in class and the types of projects we were taking on.

 Yeah. I loved the process of making and the ideation and coming up with the concept.

Joe Mills: You're going, you're touring these agencies and then you graduate. What happens?

Darren Halbig: I moved back home because I had student loan debt that I wanted to pay off and spent five years there working at a small agency, just digging in and learning the ropes, learning what it was like to work for a client versus work for yourself.

Joe Mills: Are you loving it or are you like I found my home or?

Darren Halbig: I love what I was doing. I think I really quickly realized that Evansville was a small market. The opportunities, there were very limited. I started to see what other agencies were doing and what was out there. And I knew that I probably wasn't gonna be real happy, staying there the rest of my life and the agency that I worked at, they were becoming very successful at it, but they were focusing just on healthcare and it was very interesting and fascinating at first.

But you do like your third heart campaign in six months and it started to just feel really repetitive and I just wanted different opportunities.

Joe Mills: You mentioned opportunities twice in there. What about the broadening of the horizon? Why did you wanna chase that?

Darren Halbig: I did start to feel comfortable and I realized that if I wanted to keep growing, I was going to have to go somewhere where I was not comfortable in a new situation with new opportunities and honestly, things that scared me a little bit and moving away from home and that comfort zone and diving into a bigger market with bigger clients it was something I knew I had to do to keep going.

Joe Mills: What about the bigger different clients felt scary?

Darren Halbig: When you come to a market, this size, the talent pools, bigger. The competition amongst agencies is different. I wanted to push myself by being around people that were better than me. I knew that exposing myself to those people, I would learn more about the craft, but I would also, it would open my eyes to bigger opportunities in branding and just advertising in general and so that's ultimately why I made the move.

Joe Mills: And that was when you went to Publicis?

Darren Halbig:  No, I went to Miller Brooks, which is an agency that's still around here in Indianapolis. Yeah.

Joe Mills: You almost progressed in like agency size, right? Small, little bit bigger. And then Publicis is huge. What about the different environments, you talked about getting around better talent, extending your capabilities, the opportunities you saw. What about the organizational jumps. Those are sort of inflection points. As I see them in the timeline where it's like, alright, I made a jump to go be around more people who are potentially more talented. And my hypothesis is that that will make me grow. Was that accurate? What was your experience like in that?

Darren Halbig: Yeah, I think at that point in my career, I was very focused on building my portfolio. At some point in time, I realized kind of the creative director role was something that I wanted to go after and I needed to build a really strong portfolio to do that. That's what's gonna get you opportunities at new places.

Joe Mills:  There's an interesting path here around the marketing firm life, where there is a lot of what gets me an opening at another place. Would you say that you followed a traditional trajectory all the way through or did yours take a weird turn in of direction?

Darren Halbig: I don't really think it took a weird turn. I think it was pretty traditional in the roles.

I went from graphic designer to art director, to senior art director to associate creative director. I mean, it was the traditional path. I think what was interesting that about halfway through the journey, the agency model started to change. And a lot of the agencies that I've worked at they're much smaller or they're not around anymore.

And so I saw that happening. I saw that the traditional way of advertising was starting to change really, really quickly. And there were those people who saw it and were trying to stay ahead of it. And there was those people that were trying to like hang onto the past and couldn't figure out how to evolve those agencies aren't around.

Joe Mills: So that's an interesting thing. One of the themes I'm hearing throughout your experiences. I go and surround myself with the people I want to be like. So I go, and I look for where is the next group that can pull me up so that I can just absorb what they know how to do and make myself better by like osmosis for lack of a better term.

But when you look around in the industry is shifting that much. Did that change the way that you thought about your next growth opportunity?

Darren Halbig: I still wanted to go find those people that were better or doing the things that were kind of on the fringe or at least experimenting with those things. I think that was always kind of the thing that motivated me.

I went to an agency where everybody there from a design standpoint, they were all better than me. It scared the shit outta me, but I knew that by walking through that door, it was just gonna make me better and that was probably maybe the first time I felt like in over my head. By the time I left there, I was so prepared to do anything I wasn't scared.

And I knew that the best way to make a team was to find people that were better at the things that I was not good at. And it made the team more rounded and better.

Joe Mills: There's an interesting theme that I'm also hearing about like catching up. Once you figure out what you want to do, like you run at it really hard.

It happened that I need to make a portfolio. And I took a little bit of like AP level art through high school and the people who were gonna go do that in college already had a portfolio walking in freshman year. But I imagine that was like a lot of your classmates probably had the portfolio from before college and walking into this place where I'm not as good as the people around me.

So now I gotta catch up. It's an interesting similarity. Has that come up again?

Darren Halbig: I think those situations help you build confidence, you know, early on, I was lacking a little of that confidence. I think in this industry, you want to be able to hold your own against your peers. And I think that getting to that place where I had that respect from them was important ultimately.

Joe Mills: How did that respect factor play into moving to an unknown agency like element three was at the time? Firmly in the agency category unknown and pretty much no creative background of notoriety. How does that juxtapose how I wanna be respected by my peers?

Darren Halbig: Well, I think that was a very different point in my career where when I stepped in the door here, I saw the opportunity to build something and to take the framework of what was here from a creative department and turn it into something that was respected and was seen as kind of like a powerhouse of the creative community here.

I've been told like, oh, you can go do this thing before, or here's an opportunity to do this, but no one had ever quite laid it out like Tiffany did to me when I came here. And I think that's what made this a challenge for me. By the time I walked in the door here, I think I'd been doing this for like 18 years.

So I was at a very different point in my career and I really felt ready to build something. Finding the people that were pushing the envelope and doing new things was important. I think this was just that next stepping stone in my career. And I wasn't really worried about coming to an unknown agency. I saw an opportunity to make this unknown agency and to build a team of people here that were doing really great things.

Joe Mills: What have been the inflection points along that road? Cause that was, you've been here nine years? Eight and a few months.What have been like the inflection points that have forced you to level up inside of that?

Darren Halbig: I think there's been maybe four iterations of the creative team since I've been at element three and each one of those has demanded something very different from me.

The first iteration was just getting people used to having a creative director because they had almost all worked independently at the time. A lot of times the strategy leads were kind of like the gatekeeper of creative, which was really weird to me. One iteration was just figuring that out. And the second and third iteration kind of came together, was elevating the work and growing like super fast. There was a time when we had a 25 person creative department, it included an in-house video team. It was a lot. Part of that was me giving up the work, which was something that it was really hard for me to do to stop making things.

Joe Mills: You loved making things from the beginning.

Darren Halbig: Right. So it was a challenge. There was a day when Tiffany came to me and said stop using programs on your computer, just don't don't open up illustrator or Photoshop or InDesign the rest of the year. That was hard cause it was like part of my identity was just stripped away at the time it was necessary when you're trying to lead 25 people and figure out how to keep them all busy all the time.

I had to rely on them to start doing the work and they did. I mean, my team has been amazing since the day that I walked in the door outside of work.

Joe Mills: I know for myself personally, I can see similar iterations. I don't have a team, but I see a lot of iterations in my time in element three, I can kind of bucket them like you just did.

And I see also how that affects me, like at home and in my life outside of the work four walls. What sort of impact did that have? Especially when you said on my identity got stripped away from not doing the work, how did that show up for you in your life?

Darren Halbig: I think it probably made me an asshole for a while. It was, it was really hard and I probably took it home with me. I probably took it outta my family a little bit. I, I did not know how to find a release, like a creative release outside of work, because I'd always found it in work. And so, you know, I, at one point in time, I painted a lot and drew a lot and all that had stopped because I was getting that fulfillment at an office.

And so, yeah, that, that was probably just was probably not the nicest, greatest time to be around me outside of work or at work, maybe. I think I realized how to find those outlets outside of work and the impact that I could have on the work being done and giving people the opportunity and the space to do the work without me involved and just allowing them to do their thing like I had been allowed to.

I think I started to get a lot of fulfillment out of that. And so that's part of, I think the evolution of this role is not doing as much, but giving people opportunity to do the things that you once did.

Joe Mills: It reminds me it's an overused cliche of the athlete who's like, I'm used to hitting the shot to win. And now I've gotta transition myself into a coach role where I have other people shooting the shot to win.

Were there like specific pieces of that that was really hard for you? Like letting go of the client pitch or letting go of being the one who designed, you know, the front page of an advertisement or like, was there anything tangible?

You're like, oh, I just like missed that feeling.

Darren Halbig: I think you do. I think the feeling's different now. It's now seeing the people that are doing that work, get the praise and the accolades for it. And I still do miss certain parts of it, but I get a great sense of satisfaction out of watching those around me, be successful now.

And to get those accolades that I once did.

Joe Mills: Are you less of an asshole at home than too? Calling Darren's wife, excuse me. This theme that I'm picking up is there's actually an amazing parallel that I see between what your parents chose to do and what you have chosen to do where your parents were.

Like, I am going to invest in a rotating group of people, largely that I get to. Try to imprint on for a period of time, help grow, and then they're gonna go and they're gonna apply somewhere else in the marketing world. People go and fly other places all the time. You've like transitioned yourself from being the one in the mess, making beauty out of mess.

And now you observe it from afar and you help facilitate other people doing that. And you get your fulfillment from there, development. How do you deal with somebody choosing to take a different opportunity when that's where a lot of your focus is at is helping your team?

Darren Halbig: It's hard sometimes to see people that you've grown close to, or that you may be brought here leave, but it's also to be able to watch them and know that maybe you had a little bit of something to do with like getting them to where they're going.

That's super rewarding too. And then I've seen that happen. Several times since I've been here. And I, as part of this business, I mean, people jump around. It's how typically you've gotten promotions and more money and all those things. But knowing that, like I said, maybe I had a little something to do with, or this place had a little something to do with them taking that next step, I think is awesome.

Joe Mills: Yeah. That's awesome. Sometimes I lead with this question. I'm gonna wrap it with you on this. Where are you focused on growing in the right now? You're like, I'm really interested in growing here at this point. Are you gonna be cycle racing again soon?

Darren Halbig: Never. No. This is probably like version five of Element Three and part of that is me figuring out what does it look like next for me? And I don't know that I have the answer at this moment, but it is something that I am consciously thinking about because I have such a great team right now and they are just like crushing it.

And I want to be able to continue to give them space to grow and lead and learn here. And I'm trying to figure out like, how do I fit into that thread and not get in their way of doing that?

Joe Mills: Awesome, man. Well, I appreciate it. It's been fun to. More of your story firsthand and just understand where you get your drive from.

And I see this amazing parallel between you and what your parents chose to do. It's very cool.

Darren Halbig: Yeah. You maybe connected some dots there. I'd never connected.

Joe Mills: There we go. Look at that. Awesome, man. Thanks.

It is so interesting how people mirror what they see.

Reid Morris: Say more about.

Joe Mills: Darren watched his parents give up what they loved. His mom gives up teaching to be a stay-at-home mom. And clearly kids are very important to his parents and like fostering the next growth of people, tease our line, but they're literally fostering. And then they go and they like give themselves to kids and then the kids move on.

And like, as a person who gives, they take part of you every time and they also give something back to you, but that like rotating door of people that you've impacted is so incredibly identical to leading a creative team in a marketing environment. The first thing I learned about marketing, when I first started Element Three, I was like, oh, this is just based on the quality of your people.

And so every time a good person chooses to take an awesome opportunity for themselves, it hurts, but you're happy.

Reid Morris: Yeah. I honestly really aligned with his whole journey of putting himself in environments where you are forced to level up. I don't know who first said this phrase, but the concept of, if you're the smartest person in the room, find another room and that mentality, I feel like something that we experience in more conversations with Tiffany, with there and, and just day to day with the people at Element Three.

It's all these people who want to put themselves in an environment where they're force to do be better.

Joe Mills: It's interesting too. Did you pick up on how opposite he and Tiffany approached growth?

Reid Morris: No.

Joe Mills: Okay. Yeah, beat this up with me a little bit. Darren talked about needing to find the next group that will pull him forward. He talked about, oh, I need to get into that market so I can be around people who are better than me. And then I'll grow. Tiffany's is the literal 180 degree difference where Tiffany is like, I have to figure out where I grow because I am responsible for everybody else growing behind me.

And Darren is experiencing that now. Where we asked him, what are you growing into now? And he's like, I'm not sure yet. I have to figure out where I fit inside of this next iteration of my team. They're just crushing it so much that what do I do now?

And it is so interesting. It totally fits their personality types, right? How they're doing the same thing, but they are looking at it completely different.

Reid Morris: Yeah and I think it plays back to that concept of getting to a place with yourself to where you can get to a place with the people around you to write this sort of expansion and the different points that when journey point that, yeah.

Joe Mills: Yeah it's really interesting. It's interesting that you said you really identify with what Darren had to say. I don't know that I do. I don't think about it that way.

Reid Morris: That like intentionally surrounding yourself with people who force you to be better?

Joe Mills: I like to say that I do, but like, I don't. I don't like wake up and like, who do I need to surround myself with today? That's gonna improve me.

Reid Morris: Well, yeah. I think you can find that motivation from different places. So some people will get it from their environment and some people have sort of manifested it internally.

Right? And you're somebody who maybe you don't need other people around you to like, prove that you're not good enough, but deep down, that's just sort of like this thing that's ingrained of like, no matter how good this current state is, it always has to be better.

Joe Mills:  I kind of searched for the guru.

That's what I'm realizing right now, as we're talking about it is, you know, like I'm very into CrossFit. Well, a lot of good CrossFitters talk about the need for a training environment that supports that like, oh, I need somebody next to me to make me go faster. I really don't, but I love a coach and I don't go looking for a room where I'm not the smartest person, but man, if I didn't have Tiffany and Kyler.

I wouldn't have a coach. If didn't have Brian Kavicky, I wouldn't have a coach. Like I surround myself with people specifically who know the thing that I care about, better than I do, and can tell me how to get better. Versus Darren looks for the environment in which I will be forced to level myself up because to be the best in the pack, I have to know what the pack is.

Reid Morris: And I think that's something that's helpful for people to figure out for themselves, right? People that aren't as far along on that journey, but maybe don't quite know how to break through to that next level. Some people that might be, find a mentor or some people, it might be their growth is stagnant because they are one of the better people in the room, whether they're early in their career or not.

But what is that forcing function? Be it a guide or an environment that you can sort. Use to force yourself to get to that next level as somebody who's like a growth mind individual. And that's what this place does for people here too. They choose to come here. Kinda shows you your blind spots.

Joe Mills: It goes back to Darren's point too, about like, if we can play even a little bit of a role, if I can play a part in helping them achieve the things that they want to achieve, that's fulfillment for me now.

Whereas it used to be like, did I create the beautiful ad? Did I make the thing now? It's did I help that person learn a skill? Develop their character grow in some capacity that allows them to, I mean, we'd love for them to keep that here, but if they got an amazing chance to go somewhere else and do it, that's fulfillment too.

Reid Morris: For sure. Cool. Well, who are we talking to next? We have Danielle and John Danielle and John. So John, our VP of digital and web Danielle VP of strategy.

Joe Mills: I wanna poke on this, watching the people ahead of you thing a little bit more. Okay. I think John's a good opportunity to have that conversation because John traveled around the world, growing up with his dad who was in the military.

And John has said to me, I got this framework from the military and I want to hear about, I wanna see if there's a commonality there  that like pulls through about watching the people ahead of you or watching people who surround you in your environment and what impact environment has that might be the thing is like, what impact does the environment you come from?

How does that affect your choices moving forward? And how does it affect who you turn into? I would bet it's quite a lot.

Reid Morris:  I mean, everybody says like, you're proud my parents.

Joe Mills: Yeah, but like Tiffany bucks that trend completely. Tiffany went to school in Remington, like that's where she grew up.

And then she went to college at Purdue and she is not like the place that she's from. So it's really interesting to contrast those situations. Yeah.

Reid Morris: You'll get to see sort of the different motivations from each of these people where they all then landed and the same spot.

Joe Mills:  The same spot. Yeah.

That's interesting. I like that. That's a good thread to pull on is, you're really different, you have different motivations but you're all building the same thing, but why? Why? That's what we're gonna go check out. We're gonna go investigate that with John

Reid Morris: Sounds great.